In this captivating episode, we sit down with Dr. Nerissa Kreher, a pediatric endocrinologist who has successfully navigated the transition from clinical practice to the pharmaceutical industry. Dr. Kreher, founder of IndustryMDCoach.com, shares her wealth of experience and insider knowledge on how physicians can make the leap into exciting non-clinical roles within biotech and pharma companies. Throughout the interview, Dr. Kreher dispels common myths and highlights the numerous benefits of working in the pharmaceutical industry.
Whether you’re a physician entrepreneur, investor, or simply curious about exploring non-clinical career opportunities, this podcast is a must-listen. Dr. Kreher’s inspiring success stories and practical advice will empower you to take the first steps towards a fulfilling career in the pharmaceutical industry. Tune in to discover how you can leverage your medical expertise and experience to embark on a thrilling new career path in the world of biotech and pharma.
Industry MD Coach
https://www.industrymdcoach.com
Transcript:
Dr. Mike: [00:00:00] Hey guys, Dr. Mike Woo-Ming, welcome to another edition of Bootstrap MD, the podcast for physician and healthcare entrepreneurs. Have you ever thought about a different career outside of medicine? We’ve discussed nine clinical careers. And one of the ways that you can. Branch out into medicine. That’s not necessarily a nonclinical role is to go in through industry or big pharma or work for a big biotech company.
And I have an expert who has done exactly that. She’s a chief medical officer of a biotech company. And a pediatric endocrinologist her transition into the [00:01:00] pharmaceutical industry occurred earlier in her career, and she is now killing me. I did more than 18 years of experience working in biotech and pharma started career medical affairs moved into clinical development.
And she’s experienced including both small to large biotech and both private and public companies. Recently, she’s been involved in helping other physicians to get into the industry, into a brand new field that they may not have any experience, may have little experience in, and has been successfully helping other physicians.
Into this arena. So I’d like to bring to the table and you know what Nerissa, I don’t want to mess this up. So I’m going to edit this part. Make sure I pronounce your last name correctly. Because I always call you Nerissa. I never call you by your last name.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Yeah. Yeah. It’s Kreher. So rhymes with prayer.
Dr. Mike: All right.
And I want to welcome into the program, Dr. Nerissa Kreher. Nerissa, how are you doing?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: I’m great, Mike. Thanks so much [00:02:00] for having me.
Dr. Mike: Great. And I’ve gotten to know you you’re in our Mastermind, Physician Mastermind group and how you’ve been successfully helping other doctors get into this field. So I always want to know because it’s certainly I believe this maybe you weren’t thinking of this as a career when you were back in medical school, or maybe I’m mistaken.
So maybe just talk about your, your background and then what led you to getting into this type of industry.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Certainly. My understanding of the biotech and pharmaceutical industry really came when I was in my fellowship and there was a pediatric endocrinologist who had actually completed her whole career.
So she had been a full professor at UCLA and then transitioned into pharma. So I was aware of her, but she had a very different trajectory, of course, than I did. And so she was Thought leader or key opinion leader and then transitioned. So [00:03:00] it was very unusual in my understanding at the time that physicians could transition soon after they had finished their training.
I came to the biotech industry because. A role that I was planning on taking actually in an academic role was eliminated at the time. And so I started looking around and through my network. 1 of the sales representatives from the biotech company passed my resume along. And that’s really how I stepped into that 1st role in medical affairs. 18 years ago.
Dr. Mike: So you actually started up in fellowship did you feel the need to do some clinical experience before then? Maybe just discuss your feelings because this is often some feelings that I often hear from other physicians who get into non clinical careers.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Yeah, so during my [00:04:00] fellowship, I knew that I wanted to do, academic clinical research.
So I did do a master’s in clinical research during my fellowship, but that wasn’t with the intent of going into the pharmaceutical industry. It was really with the intent of doing academic clinical research. And so what I would say to other other physicians who want to work in industry or considering that transition, you don’t necessarily need any other training than your medical training.
So there are people who might have MBAs. There are people who might have gotten a master’s in clinical research like I did, but that’s not a prerequisite. Really what we need is that medical clinical knowledge and training to help people make that transition.
Dr. Mike: So what initially drew you into going to this, into this field?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Yeah. So the original [00:05:00] draw was, it was a bit fortuitous because I was in this situation of the academic role fell through. I had young kids, I needed a job and there weren’t a lot of other opportunities for pediatric endocrinologists where I am in the Boston area. And so I really took a chance. On going into pharma and knowing that at the time I could reverse that decision and go back into academics a couple of years later if it didn’t work out.
So I, I think, I did take a chance and I think that speaks to a mindset piece here of being able to take a chance and know that the decision doesn’t have to be your final career decision.
Dr. Mike: What are some like myths that you think when, because I know you’ve worked with a lot of doctors, they’re getting into this field, what are some myths that, or some misbeliefs that they should know? Beforehand or just be aware of before they [00:06:00] decide to dip their toe into this.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Yeah, so one of the most common myths that physicians come with Is that they need to be of a specific specialty. So i’ll have people Get on the phone to talk to me and ask questions and they will say things like I’m not an oncologist or I’m not fellowship trained and in fact, I’ve been able to help a wide variety of physicians land roles in the pharma industry.
From internal medicine with no fellowship training, family medicine would be another example, general pediatrics all the way through the hematologist and oncologist. But if you think about drug development, there is active drug development across a wide variety of specialties. And so if people will look at their training, look at their expertise, then they can help to [00:07:00] sell, if you will, themselves in the interview process.
Another myth that I commonly hear people say is just misunderstanding job descriptions. So they get on linked in, they start looking at job descriptions, and they see that the companies are asking for four years, five years of industry experience, and they won’t apply for those jobs. But, in fact, what I counsel people to do is to apply for any job that’s asking for five years or less of industry experience, because, obviously, If you don’t have any experience, you’re not going to be able to apply for any job.
So you do have to take a leap of faith and apply for those roles. And then when you get the interview again, you’re selling your experience and expertise and how you can use that in this role that you’re applying for.
Dr. Mike: What are the benefits for a [00:08:00] physician to enter a big pharma biotech industry?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Yeah. So I think of the intellectual benefit being that you’re always surrounded by new ideas, new thinking, lots of innovation.
You’re also surrounded by people who aren’t all physicians. So you’re learning from biostatisticians, you’re learning from commercial colleagues, you’re learning from regulatory colleagues. So there’s this always ongoing learning opportunity that I think draws a lot of physicians into medicine in the first place.
From more practical benefits. There’s typically not call. So I do have to work on some evenings and some weekends. I do have to travel some, but I’m not carrying a pager and I’m not on, a rotating call situation. So [00:09:00] lots more time freedom. We don’t work on the weekends. Again, I might have to go to a conference or travel, but generally speaking, our weekends are free to us.
And then the final thing I would say is in medicine, most physicians are jockeying for trading Thanksgiving and the Christmas holiday or another holiday. And in this situation, we have all of those holidays off typically. And so lots more time freedom overall.
As a doctor, I wasn’t used to asking for help, especially when it came to subjects outside of medicine. But then I found physician coaches. com. In an instant, I found hundreds of experts to help me in all aspects of life on areas. I was afraid to ask dealing with burnout, starting a side gig, money [00:10:00] management, even help with my marriage.
And the best part, nearly all experts are physicians themselves. After reading their profile in a quick chat, I knew I found the right mentor for me. At PhysicianCoaches. com, help from professional colleagues is just a click away.
Dr. Mike: And then I also assume you’re not having to carry some type of malpractice, or is there any type of liability that biotech physicians should be aware of.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: That’s actually a great point, Mike. So we’re not practicing [00:11:00] medicine. So we don’t need to have malpractice insurance. There are other types of insurance that a company will have, but nothing specific to the physician necessarily.
Just because again, we’re not in charge of any specific patient care.
Dr. Mike: So we talked about the benefit, but we also have to, is there any drawbacks that we should be aware of? I’m sure you’ve dealt with a lot of physicians who are like, I want to do something different. They come to you and you probably realize maybe they’re not best prepared for this.
What are some things that they should be aware of?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: I’m smiling because there definitely are some things. So going back to what I was saying about learning from all of these different kinds of people, there is. The necessity of recognizing that no longer. Are you the key decision maker? And so I recognize that now with clinical practice, there are other decision makers, administration, insurance companies, et cetera, but the [00:12:00] physician’s still pretty much at the top of the totem pole about a lot of decisions for patients and their recommendations.
In pharma and biotech, there is cross functional decision making. And there may be a time, for example, when maybe you want something specific in a clinical trial design, but for budget purposes or for timeline purposes, you’re not able to do that. So it does require a personality where you can step away from it always being Your decision to make and there is the requirements for some humility in that.
I think the other thing is getting used to corporate. There are Differing ways of communicating with people that are not necessarily negative and actually a good learning experience But it is a different experience than working in [00:13:00] You a clinical medical practice situation.
Dr. Mike: Now, you had mentioned your first job.
It was basically someone knew you. There was some networking involved. It didn’t sound like there was like an ad, for this position. It was either you knew someone or someone knows you. Is that correct?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: So that was true and I will say networking is very important when I’m working with physician clients.
We spend time thinking about networking and that’s actually a myth as well. People get in their heads about not wanting to bother someone or not wanting to make a mistake in networking. And so we do spend a lot of time talking about the fact that. Generally, people want to help one another and so networking is really critical, but you’re right in my situation.
My first role was part of my network. But I will say, when the sales representative asked me for my resume. [00:14:00] I could have said, this is crazy. There’s no way I’m going to get a job. I’m not going to do that. But I didn’t I said, okay, why not give it a try? She has an opportunity to share my resume.
And again, that mindset of putting yourself out there, being willing to potentially fail and taking a chance really is what helped me land that 1st role.
Dr. Mike: And then in line of networking you’re in Massachusetts, you’re in Boston, the Boston area, obviously there’s a lot of startups and tech so how important is it to be in a location that’s, like a Silicon Valley or something like that versus Dubuque, Iowa, and no offense to any Dubuque, Iowa residents, but it’s probably not known as a big biotech area.
How important is it to be in these? Fast moving tech friendly cities.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Sure. So I do think it’s beneficial, but it’s certainly not necessary, especially [00:15:00] with covid. We have seen a real change to the ability to work in a remote setting situation or a hybrid situation. As an example, a recent example, I had a medical director who was living in completely different state and traveled into our offices in the Boston area, once a month.
Or something like that. So there certainly are more opportunities now for that remote type work. Again, being able to be in the office and be close. Some companies have gone back to a requirement, but I think most have recognized that people can be effective and working from home and are moving more to those models.
Dr. Mike: In your experience, did you have to go into an office every day? Or maybe since COVID, has there been more remote work done that you’re able to do from your own home?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Certainly. In my early days it was more, [00:16:00] More typical that you would go in 4 to 5 days a week. There’s sometimes with some flexibility.
For example, I would work from home on a Friday as an example, especially given that I was doing a decent amount of travel in my medical affairs role. Now with covid the typical situation for many physicians is 1 to 2 days in an office, but flexibility for people who also enjoy working in the office.
And, opportunity if I wanted to be in the office 3, 4 days. So that amount of flexibility, I think is again, 1 of the benefits. If I have a doctor’s appointment for myself or some, thing I need to manage. I don’t necessarily have to go into the office every day.
Dr. Mike: Now, we’re talking with Nerissa Kreher IndustryMDCoach. com. In your bio, you mentioned you also hold an MBA from Northeastern University. [00:17:00] So how important is it to get an MBA in this type of field?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: So it’s not and certainly not a requirement. Also worth mentioning that it’s not a requirement to have a PhD either. So sometimes people think you have to be an MD PhD or an MD MBA.
Not at all necessary. I actually chose to get my MBA after I was working in the industry. I had an opportunity that one of my mentors had done this program and wanted me to do it. And the company actually pretty much covered the tuition for that MBA. So I was in a very good situation to have that covered.
And I did it because I was very much interested in the business aspects. So I wanted to learn more about finance, for example, about accounting so that I could be a better partner to some of my colleagues.
Dr. Mike: That makes a lot of [00:18:00] sense. Now in pharma, of course, it runs the gamut. You’ve got your stalwarts, right?
Your Merck’s, your Johnson’s and Johnson’s. And then, there’s probably some that are attracted by that hot startup that’s coming out with some new anti cancer drug with perhaps, they’ve got some equity positions that they want to, throw your way. What do you recommend for someone, a doctor going in and they’re seeing it and they’re deciding which way is there to go, because I assume you’ve dealt with both ways that you can do this.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: So I started in a larger biotech pharma company, and then I’ve worked in companies as small as about 25 people and not even public, but still private. What I recommend to most of my clients coming in with no experience is that they focus on the larger companies. First, a couple of reasons for that.
They’re going to get more disciplined, technical training at those companies where [00:19:00] they really learn the, we call them SOPs, right? Standard operating procedures and how to really do whatever the role is with all of the supporting people around you. There are also just more positions in those bigger pharma companies, so your opportunity is better.
They’re hiring more people, generally speaking. For the smaller companies, startups, the 40, 50, 100 people companies, many of them are going to want physicians with experience. And the reason for that is maybe they only have one physician hire to even bring on board in a particular year. And it’s very difficult when you’re moving at such a fast pace in a startup to really train someone in all of the things that they need to learn.
So it’s much more typical that someone transitions to that smaller biotech environment after [00:20:00] having some larger pharma experience. It’s not to say it can’t be done, but it’s just, I would say, a more straightforward path and better training ground.
Dr. Mike: Now, you had mentioned earlier that you help, doctors from different specialties.
I was surprised you mentioned primary care. Because I always thought that this is a specialty type of, position that there is. Are there certain types of specialties that, more caters to Pharmaceutical industry,
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Right! So what I tell people to think about is if you think about, the drugs that are out there, or I’m not a big fan of marketing pharma products on TV, but the drugs that are being advertised on TV, right?
Yeah, so oncology is certainly a hot area. There’s a lot of oncology drug development, but there’s also drug development in, for example, endocrinology, right? Think about all the drugs for type 2 diabetes [00:21:00] as an example, obesity now as an example. So that’s endocrine gastroenterology. So for UC and Crohn’s would be an example, right?
If you think about those areas, that can help you match to the specialties that are hot. Immunology would be another one. Rheumatology might be another one. However, the more primary care folks, they also have some level of expertise in these areas, right? They might not be the person that’s getting referred the patient with Crohn’s, but they’re involved in Diagnosing Crohn’s, for example.
So for the generalists, they can get roles in medical affairs. They can land roles in what we call pharmacovigilance or drug safety. So drug safety is all about evaluating safety signals. And so that really is our [00:22:00] clinical and medical knowledge and who is better versed to even learn about a new disease than a physician, right?
So you don’t have to necessarily have that specialty training, but there are times that it certainly can be helpful to land a specific role.
Dr. Mike: Now, It’s always good to see have an idea what it what it would be like to be in your shoes, most physicians, they’re going to the hospital, they’re going to the clinic, they know they’re going to be seeing patients all day, working on their EMR, and then hopefully going home later that day.
That’s a typical day for a doctor. What is it for a typical doctor in the pharmaceutical industry?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Oh, yeah, that’s a great question. One of the fun things and I think one of the reasons that I’ve enjoyed working in industry for almost 20 years now is it is different every day. And actually different every hour.
I [00:23:00] usually start my day around 8 ish, finish my day around 5:30, maybe 6, depending on what’s going on. We do have a number of meetings. Depending on the role and what you’re doing, you might be meeting with colleagues to talk about clinical trial design, for example, or something we call a target product profile where we’re trying to define what are the characteristics of a drug that we would take forth in development.
What kind of efficacy signals would we anticipate? What kind of safety signals? How much drug? How often is it dose that those is that’s just an example. So lots of meetings. I do still travel. I get to interact with patients and patient advocacy groups. And so that can be very rewarding attending conferences and Congress’s.
1 of the perks is actually often you don’t have to again. And a barter with people about, I [00:24:00] want to go to one specific conference and you go to another because we need to cover for each other. But you have the opportunity to really stay up to date and attend all the congresses in that specialty area.
So some travel involved. And, my meetings can go from working on something 1 on 1, just individually by myself, like a clinical trial protocol to very big meetings where we’re strategizing about what 3 years from now is going to look like. Incredibly varied and sometimes very detailed work, and sometimes, bigger picture type work.
Dr. Mike: That’s great. I do have to talk about this, because it comes up all the time, anytime I talk about non clinical careers, and that’s pay. They want to do this, but am I going to be making the same amount of money as a doctor? If it’s less, how much less? What’s your answer? Because I’m sure you get this question quite a bit.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Yes. I [00:25:00] do. I think for the Specialties that are procedural base that do get paid more than specialties that aren’t procedural based. Sometimes that trade off can be difficult to make, even with the time, save the lack of call, et cetera. Most of the packages in industry include a base salary and then a percent bonus.
That’s typically, You make your bonus, generally speaking, unless there’s something really quite catastrophic that’s happened. And then, as you mentioned at the beginning, there is equity from a stock perspective. With that, starting around the director level, a typical starting salary ballpark would be in the high 200s.
And then a bonus on that, a percentage is going to be probably in the 20 percent range, maybe 25 percent range in a larger pharma company. So you can see, you start to [00:26:00] get up into the 300s quite quickly and so for a pediatric endocrinologist, for example, that trade off is easily made. For a general pediatrician, perhaps, that trade off is easily made.
For an orthopedic surgeon, different numbers we’re talking about.
Dr. Mike: And just as anything, you’re trading away lifestyle, you’re trading away regular hours, more time with the family. There’s always that. I know there’s some doctors who may have looked into industry and a question I come up with is what, I see these ads and they’re always asking me for, Experience and I’m let’s say my mid career or early mid career.
I’ve just seen patients. What would you answer them for saying, I don’t have any experience or how do they get experience if they’re seeing patients all day? What would you recommend?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: So 1st, I go through with them and highlight that they actually do have experience. Their 1st experience is all of their [00:27:00] medical and clinical knowledge about diseases and that’s that’s what they bring to the table in many of these roles, but physicians also have leadership experience. They have management experience because they’re leading a team. They’re managing their. team. So they often discount that. And for whatever reason, many of us as physicians, we’re perfectionists.
We don’t give ourselves credit for all of our experience. So I really have to tease that out of people. And that’s something we do from both the mindset perspective, but also specifically getting that down on their resume. Now on the flip side of that, What can they do to gain experience? I often will suggest that people bring or take the opportunity to participate in an for example, if they’re interested in clinical development, that could be something they could think [00:28:00] about.
Trying to participate at the academic level in clinical trials, but again, that is not necessary. Their experience comes from taking care of patients and their clinical knowledge.
Dr. Mike: That’s very, again, it’s questions that I see come up quite a bit and then finally, you decided to help other physicians and you now coach physicians to get into this industry.
What led you to launch launching Industry MD coach?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: So it was in the thick of COVID, and it was the way I could help my physician colleagues that I saw in other coaching programs that were hurting, that were burnt out, that were feeling scared. And I thought that this was a way I could share with them a different opportunity to.
To use their training, and so I put it out into the universe and actually have over the last 3 years been able to [00:29:00] help, upwards of 75 positions in some way, shape or form with resumes with interview press and so I’m really glad that I did that because I have had an opportunity to help my colleagues.
Dr. Mike: We share some of maybe perhaps one or two success stories for people who work with you.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Sure. I actually, this is I have two favorites. One just, I got an email from a colleague from a client, excuse me, that she was, She contacted me for interview prep. So she was partway through the process and had landed some interviews.
And so we worked together on interview preparation. And in that, she wrote recently to say, she had landed the role that we were preparing her for and what she learned was that the people she was competing for the role. Three of them of the four had industry experience. [00:30:00] And so she was the physician who actually didn’t have industry experience, but was successful in getting the offer.
So I’m super excited for her about that. This is a drug safety role, and she’ll be working in her area of expertise, just a great story and the other story to point out to people. How your specialty really does not matter is a pediatric child abuse specialist. So general pediatrician, and then did fellowship training and child abuse.
So no drug development there, right? You’re really not prescribing anything and she wanted to make a transition. So she has successfully transitioned to a drug safety role in contract research organization. So I think those are just great stories about how you don’t have to have experience and [00:31:00] your specialty really can be quite agnostic.
Dr. Mike: Nerissa, I think this has been very eye opening. So if somebody wanted to contact you what’s the best way for them to do that?
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: Sure. So you can find a lot of information on my website, which is industrymdcoach. com. I have some free downloads. I publish a blog on a weekly basis. I’ve been doing that for three years.
So there’s a wealth of information there. Podcasts like this one, Mike, that I’ve participated in and you can find an email there to contact us as well.
Dr. Mike: Again, I think that’s going to be so helpful. So again, we’re going to end the call right now. It’s been lots of great information that you’ve been able to share with our audience.
Any last minute advice or tip that you’d like to give to.
Dr. Nerissa Kreher: I would just say how important mindset is in this process. And so being confident, being able to [00:32:00] go in and understand the value you bring is really critical to your success in this process.
Dr. Mike: All right. Again Norissa Krehe, thank you for joining us on this.
Give us, shedding some light into this big pharma world that many of us are still, don’t know a lot about, but slowly but surely many physicians are learning about the benefits of not going into this. Thank you again. And thank you for everyone for listening. As always, you’re going to have your ups and downs, whether being an entrepreneur or getting into a new career that you’re not aware of.
Do something every single day, little day to keep you closer to your goals and keep moving your board. Thanks again.