If you have just started a coaching business or if you are thinking about starting one then the issue of choosing a niche is paramount. Choosing a niche is a very important decision that can affect how successful your business will be or if it will even survive at all.  If you choose a niche that is not compatible with your personality, skills and abilities then chances are very high that you will fail in it. 

Dr. Tonya Caylor found an area in medicine that could benefit from coaching but whose needs were not being addressed:  the resident.  Medical residents may benefit from coaching because they are often overwhelmed by the amount of work that has to be completed within their shift. Coaching enables them to achieve this objective as it helps them become more organized and efficient in what they do.

Coaches also show medical residents how they can improve their communication skills so that they can better collaborate with other health care providers. She founded Joy in Family Medicine Coaching Services® after realizing the power of physician coaching, and developed a curriculum to give physicians the tools early in their training to sustain a life-long career and find wholeness and joy in the journey.  You’ll learn from her amazing journey to tap into an audience that was previously ignored.

Dr Tonya Caylor offers a 6 week reset 1:1 coaching program for the struggling resident or faculty, along with a 6 session hybrid coaching for resident or faculty groups that involve some short toolbox talks, group coaching along with 1:1 coaching for each physician in the group.  Learn more at www.joyinfamilymedicine.com

Follow Dr. Tonya Caylor’s blog at: https://www.joyinfamilymedicine.com/blog

Dr. Tonya Caylor’s  Physician Coaches Profile: https://www.physiciancoaches.com/coaching-category/tonya-caylor

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: .

Hey guys, this is Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to another edition of BootstrapMD. This is the podcast for physician entrepreneurs. We’re continuing our series on physician coaching. I’m such a big fan of it, and I’m so excited to have my next guest. She is also a family medicine, family physician. We trained around the same time.

We just found out she spent a lot of time in academic medicine. And then when. Clinical practice. And then she decided to become a coach and she’s a certified coach. And what’s very interesting is she works primarily with residency programs and her goal is to make quality coaching available to the incubators or primary care in order to empower them with clarity, confidence, and joy that will span a lifetime.

I’m so excited to have on the program today. Dr. Tanya Taylor, how are you doing today?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me. I am doing really well. It’s a little rainy and overcast here in Anchorage, Alaska, but still always beautiful.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Like I said, you were my first Alaskan guest on this podcast over 130 episodes. So congratulations on that.

When we were, when I was reading your bio, I was just like, when you’re saying about making quality coaching accessible to the incubators of primary care in order to empower them. I just got back and I’m having flashbacks to my residency days. I’m not going to say the number I told you that what the number was say more than 20 plus years ago.

And I went, where were you at Tanya? When we needed this back then. So tell me, you were you went here in family medicine. You went to you’re from Alaska originally, is that correct?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: No, actually I’m from Florida.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Okay. That’s maybe for another story and how that worked, but then you went to residency in Alabama.

So I guess I got to know. So how did that, what did you say to go? You say what is the most extreme temperatures I can have in the us? And you go that way?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I think the most concise way to put it is that I’m just a really good wife, Mike. Oh,

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Okay. So there’s a partner that had, that…

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Had dreams and visions of Alaska. And I was like, okay, I’m willing. And I got here and it’s the best move I ever made.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Okay, so let’s talk about it. You were in, in failing medicine and you went into academic medicine after, or how did it start for you?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So after residency, I was in a multi-specialty physician owned group and I’m primarily doing outpatient only and got to experience what it’s like to be voted out with a specialist, say, Hey, primary care docs, you lose money.

So we’re voting you out of the PR practice. I just… this is very interesting. And then we sold ourselves to a for-profit program so we could be fiscally viable and then watch what it was like to have somebody sit across from me telling me how many more AKGs I needed to order to get my RBU’s up.

Eye opening, but really I had this whole deep desire the entire time. Really. I missed when I was a resident. I love teaching interns and medical students, and I was really missing that. And I knew I wanted to get into academic medicine. And so actually, when we moved to Alaska with lo and behold, there is an Alaska family medicine residency up here, and they were hiring at the time of our move. And that’s how I got into it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: How many family medicine residencies are up in Alaska?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Just the one. In fact, there is a pediatric residency. That’s still pretty new, but otherwise we’re the only residency in the state.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: How big is the program?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: It’s a 12, 12, 12

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: program.

12 12 12 Program. Okay. Yeah. And how long you’ve been with the residency program?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So I was core faculty from 2008, till 2015. And there’s a whole burnout story that I won’t go into necessarily today. And then I remained as an on-call faculty since that time, because I absolutely love working with residents and teaching.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: So it sounds like that was the impetus for you to start your coaching program. Can you tell us how that started for you?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah, so mine’s a little bit different than some people. I actually went in and joined a mom and pop kind of family medicine program clinic. They private practice. They set it up to enjoy the practice of medicine. And so I worked there and healed for my burnout still, filling in as needed over at the residency program.

And from that place, I realized I had created too much margin in my life and I really wanted to fill it with somehow getting back with the residency without going full-time as core faculty again, and I hired a coach. For a singular purpose to help me explore options. And that coach invited me to be part of a group coaching program

But that’s where I saw the power of coaching. That’s where I learned the tools that I had no idea existed. And that’s when I was like, convinced that this is what my next phase of my life was meant to be, is to take those tools and put them in the hands of the residents as they’re learning so they can enjoy their chosen field and the faculty members who I know how many hats they wear and how easy it is to burn out.

To help them sustain so they can continue to train up the next generation of leaders in primary care.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: What time did you start your coaching program? How long have you had it?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I started it right before the pandemic. So January of 2020 is actually when I started my own program and I’ve had some people say that’s a very interesting time.

Like, why didn’t you quit? And I have to credit, like I had some really good coaches about, how is this the perfect time? And, with Zoom happening and becoming normalized, it gave me the power to reach programs outside of my own program because I still… I don’t like to coach my own residents that I’m still supervising.

Because I like to be the external coach, where I have a completely safe space for them. And while I don’t coach up here in Alaska, Zoom becoming a normalized thing, made it possible for me to impact programs outside.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: When I have the, these interviews, it tends to go very organic and it gets my brain thinking about a lot of different things.

But one thing that you mentioned, I know you didn’t really want to talk about your burnout, but I’ve talked with a lot of doctors can burn out and I don’t hear a lot about burnout in academic medicine. Maybe you can speak to that. You hinted that you have many hats. I usually hear about burnout cause they’re out in the field and, insurance-based and dealing with patients and declining reimbursements and all that.

And at some point maybe again, it’s my naive thinking that academic medicine was shielded from some or most of that. Tell us about burnout in academic medicine.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. I think it stems from several different places. And it is actually pretty common. That’s why, if you look at most residency programs across the country, most have openings now.

And even at the leadership positions, especially in primary care there openings and leadership positions. But I think one of the things just from a clinical standpoint, and we’ll just carve out this little space for a moment. In clinical medicine inside of an academic center, you’re usually caring for the underserved primarily.

And so your patient base has a lack of resources. A lot of them have low health literacy. There are so many social resources and other things that are obstacles to giving them good care. That we don’t encounter like in the private practice world as often. So the burden of caring for the underserved.

It’s a, both a privilege because it’s why so many people choose primary care. So they really care about that. But it’s also a burden because it takes a lot of energy and effort to get it done. Then you put on top of that there’s the educator piece. So most of us were not educated to be educators other than the couple pearls we learned from when our residents taught us or we taught our interns.

And so you’re wearing this whole new skillset of educating adult learners and trying to figure out where that balance is, where you’re not micromanaging. But at the same time, Like keeping patient safety at the forefront. So there’s this always this kind of hopefully healthy tension, sometimes an unhealthy tension that exists in that space.

In addition to that, your responsible for curricular areas for. Writing curriculum for family medicine, because so much of our rotations are external, like keeping the rapport up with the obstetricians, keeping the rapport up with the urologist and making sure you create this environment.

That sets the learners up for actually being able to learn and just feeling like a third year medical student following them around. In addition to that, you are an advisor, so you’re assigned resident advisees who you meet with, you tell them, where they’re not meeting the mark, where they can meet the mark, explore things, you mentor them.

So there’s all of those sorts of things. And then, there’s the day to day, didactics and meetings and leadership positions. Hospital committees and academic successes everybody has to show that they’re working in a research-based writing papers or publishing in journals and those kinds of things.

They’re actually a lot of different hats. And if you’re like me, and you had this like issue of unhealthy perfectionism combine that with a real heavy leaning on external validation, it’s a setup for burnout.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, it sounds you took it back again, fucking back to my residence, state residency days, it was all about us, it just probably just survive. We’re not thinking what, are the program directors, the people who molded us to where. Where we are today, all the stress that they had.

So it’s good for you to shine a light on that. So let’s move on to actually starting up your coaching practice. How did that start? Did you say one day, you know what, this is what I want. I want to do. And the rent and how’d you with open doors and say, okay, name your price, right? Is that how it works?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Haha! No, not at all. I will say that because I was looking for a way to fill that void that I had, where I wasn’t working as close with residents. And then at the same time, like having my eyes open to the power of coaching, it was like the aha moment. And then I had. How does this war, right?

Because I didn’t have, I’m really good at looking what somebody else’s doing and putting it together, repeating it. But this was something new and outside the box that I didn’t have a model to copy, which is outside my comfort zone, but that’s where we grow. Would wear in that zone of discomfort.

I like to think of it. And so I try all different things. I had an idea that I had some key concepts that I wanted to teach. But I didn’t want it to be all about didactics and lectures. So I made like short 10 to 15 minute modules. And so I actually had some people who gave scholarships to residents because they believed in the work as well. And so I had a few residents who in early career physicians who were willing to go through the process with me, as I learned what worked, what didn’t work.

I then had the opportunity to coach in a program who had heard. That I love working with residents. And they invited me to do an experimental, like group coaching program. One for the residents and one for the faculty. So I learned a lot. And so what my mindset was is I learned to see failure, not as failure, but as a ha what do I learn from this?

How do I take this and grow? And so many different opportunities, like from the group coaching, I figured. What time’s that you could expect for residents to be able to show up and what’s not going to work. So going forward, I know when I’m talking with a program, what I will be doing and what I’m not willing to do and then taking that and honing in, like seeing just the group without the one-on-one.

There was something missing, but realizing that residency programs, especially in primary care are not usually a overflowing with funds, right? So like how do we make it affordable for them to access it and yet get that one-on-one and then that was the birth of the hybrid program, which seems to be working really well.

And then I’m also realizing that occasionally programs don’t want a big group coaching program, but they have a resident or a faculty who are struggling. Some of them may officially be in difficulty and having a set like intensive six week program for them. So that’s it’s learning on the go… oh, so I guess you actually were asking like how so after I were learning all of that.

I think it really took that courage that I think all entrepreneurs tap into, no matter how scary the circumstances is, where you start talking about what you do. And putting it out there. And I am such not a salesy person. But once I could wrap my head around that, I believe in what I’m doing, like 100%.

And when I can talk from that place, I’m not pitching, I’m just sharing what’s available. I’m not living out of scarcity. The programs who are ready to have coaching will find me. And absolutely convinced. And so that was step one. And then step two was like being brave enough to say, “Hey, Kenneth, I work with your program. Can I do a webinar to teach you more about coaching and just getting information out there. And from that, word of mouth has been very helpful to me.”

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: How has the, how have you found the residency’s to be how’s it been resonating with dev? Is this a unique concept to them? Are they looking for someone like you or are they not looking for someone like you? What have you found out since you’ve been out there in the trenches?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I’d say yes to all of the above questions. I have had residency programs who thought this was a great idea, had identified… actually had a couple identify a resident in need, and then only define the resident who was like resistant to coaching. They don’t know what it is. They’re not interested. So that was interesting. It was like, oh, you know what? I’m talking to programs. But if the people I’m coaching are not invested, then I’m missing something. So trying to figure out how I make sure that they get an idea of what coaching is, I think is really important.

I have programs who were ripe for coaching. Like they, they had leaders that had experienced coaching or knew of others. Programs that were using coaching and they were actually eagerly looking for something that would fill that void. Some programs who hadn’t had as much information about coaching but were looking for a way to really engage residents in wellness in a way that felt good because residents right now the tendency is to like, be like really a yoga class after what you’re putting me through.

There’s this resistance almost to anything with the word wellness and to have had at least one partner. And he was like, I just want to offload this piece, create a safe environment where we can still address, but the residents are open to it. So that has been there. And then, there are university programs that already have well established coaching programs and our faculty are talking.

Coaching approaches as advisors who actually are not needing it. But I find that usually the community programs are the ones that are the most eager to have coaching involved in their program.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: What challenges have you seen where the residents have today? We talked about how we’re about the same age. We see the same year it’s you looked much younger than me. Oh, by the way. But what challenges do the residents have these days that maybe we weren’t aware of that back in.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. I think things are so much more fragmented right now. We may not have had work hour rules.

But what they have right now is so completely fragmented. I think… I’m aging us. We both may have used paper charts. I don’t know, but right. But learning pagers is well, and learning all this EMR. These fancy EMR is that big systems are using are really good for a lot of things, but they’re not very easy for us to do the input.

So we’ve got to click a button, wait, type some stuff, click, wait, right? Whereas if you were dictating or writing your note, Much quicker. They have that, they have the same things that we struggle with to where they want their independence and they don’t want to be managed at the same time.

They have all the self-doubt that you, how are you letting me manage patients, right? That, like tension that exists for all learners, which is actually part of the growth process. I think they do experience they, I think this generation is really good. Yeah. Seeing systems that are broken. And I’m not saying that our generation wasn’t as good, but I think most of us just had our head down and just like plowing through the work.

But this generation has their eyes open and they’re looking for what doesn’t make sense and where there’s duplication and where things can be better. And when that’s their focus, which is a kind of a great perspective, it also. Adds so much extra burden and suffering to them that’s my big take homes from that.

I, again, of course it differs between your residency programs, but I don’t know when yours there wasn’t that there wasn’t any wellness curriculum or anything like that. And actually it was, it’s a sign of weakness too recently. It’s been right. It’s a sign of weakness that, you, oh, you did.

You didn’t finish up your work. You’re just adding more to the resident who’s coming on for you. And you need to take care of that. You’re not a team player. So how was the phrase coaching? How has that is that something that they’re familiar with? Does it seem out of, I guess obviously it’s dependent on the resident, but how has it been or is it’s too broad to actually paint that picture on what coaching is.

I would say that initially the vast majority of residents and even faculty that I’ve worked. I have not understood coaching from this perspective. And so I usually need to start with an overview of what it is, and I like to start my overviews of what it’s not. So I tell them, this isn’t like athletic coaching, right?

This is a kind of a different way where I’m not acting as your mentor, I’m not the person that’s going to tell you, like how to guide you and where to go and give you the advice like your advisor does. I’m not a therapist, right? I’m not a trained therapist diagnosed and treat. And that’s not what I’m doing in this space because coaching actually sees the individual as having their own best answers, which is great.

I love that so many faculty members are learning this now to use this, but just giving that perspective that the person in front of you actually knows best what’s the, to next in their journey for them. And having the job of helping them clarify it and take those blinders off. That’s my job.

One of my favorite stories is. This was not too long ago. I had a faculty member telling me how they’d been in this role for, a few years and their whole story was how they failed, how they’re not getting it. And it was so interesting to see how many blinders they had on. And so I just told them that my story back to them from their strengths.

And so this story could be so completely different if you told it this way, which is what I’m asking. And they just looked and they were like, because I think we get so tunnel visioned into the negative. That just having to be able to reflect back and say you’ve accomplished all of these things is so good.

Okay. I got off topic, but anyway, yeah. So I start with what coaching isn’t and then give them some ideas of what coaching is, and then just say the best way to understand it. It’s it to experience it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah. Do you primarily work with a family medicine or primary care residencies or have you gone past that as well? And I’m just curious, how would you think if not do other routes, residency programs have that same relationship, but I’m thinking like a surgery program to coaching.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So I primarily personally, my business, I work primarily with family medicine residencies and early career family physicians.

And in addition to that, I have friends who are in the coaching space, who are in academics. And so I have been invited to help with generals or general surgery residents in the Chicago area, emergency medicine and internal medicine residents in California pediatric residents North Carolina in with a group coaching kind of program and most of these have been introductions of coaching to residents in a grand rounds forum, where we come as a grand rounds.

Somebody gives like a short 10, 15 minute topic, and then we have breakout rooms where there’s a coach in each breakout room and do some small group coaching. It’s a non-threatening way to experience what coaching could be like. So in that realm, I have coached outside of family medicine, but yeah, for my business, I’m primarily focused on family medicine.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: No we all know about we’re living at right now, that physician shortage that we have. And it’s so great that you’re in there early working with these physicians, but shouldn’t we be discussing this in medical school too. Shouldn’t they be introduced to these topics. And more importantly, because we are having this physician shortage, shouldn’t it. These hospitals start paying for this.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yes, absolutely. And so here are the good news bullet points, medical schools are actually ahead of the curve of residencies and they are using coaching. Many institutions are, which is fabulous. I do join with Amway IGNITE, which is American medical women’s association, that medical student branch.

And so I do coach in that space and Amway IGNITE and the medical schools are helping fund that for the coaches. And yes. In fact, one of my faculty mentors, when I explained what I was doing. You need to go back a step and coach the medical students because they’re choosing residencies that are not a good match for them.

Yes, absolutely. I think it should start in medical school and the good news is it is starting there. And as far as… hospital systems. I would say that some hospital systems are also ahead of a lot of residency programs in and of that they are offering institution-wide programs. Coaching for institutions is a group that I’m involved with and we do coach and group programs in hospital systems based settings.

And I think that it’s really good. It’s been interesting to see different models, some models where the. The score it and at the position doesn’t complete, like 80% then the position has to pay back 50% of it or something like that. So there’s a financial investment if they don’t follow through, but otherwise the pro the hospital systems pay for it.

So it’s interesting to see different ways. I think hospitals understand. Especially the pandemic has highlighted all of the broken pieces and you’re right. A yoga class. Isn’t going to fix all of that. And at the same time, Giving access in a meaningful way to help each individual figure out what they can do to move forward on their own.

As the system also looks forward to how they can improve the system to decrease that moral injury and burnout that.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, I know at class and maybe not a meditation app, I’m going to get myself in trouble. I can definitely, if you’re watching this on the video, I could definitely see the deputy, the passion you have.

Could you share some success stories you’ve had working with these residents?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. I always take it down to an individual level because that’s where I live. I had one resident who After meeting a couple of times, he was just very frustrated with a specific attending and his words were quote, he has it out for me.

So every time he would precept, every time he was the preceptor, he would be like, oh, like he had this dread and then he would go in the room and he felt like he was just torn apart for his idea. And then he would ruminate about it. And I asked him, he said, how long does after one precepting session, how long does this go on for you?

Like where you’re thinking about it and replaying it. And he said, oh, at least a week. And so we were able to tap into the benefit of the doubt, right? What if it’s just this guy’s team coaching, teaching style.

This is how he likes to motivate you. What if he thinks he’s doing his best? And he was able to stop having dread when he went and precepted, he was actually able to build a semblance of a good relationship. I won’t say it’s his favorite preceptor, but just offloading that extra suffering residency has enough suffering.

Like we don’t need the extra of the stories that we tell ourselves in our heads. And so just helping him find relief, I think was a really good one. Another story that comes to mind is I had a resident telling me he was debriefing about his clinic afternoon. And he was like, oh, and then my second patient was a train wreck.

He’s a vascular path. And he is just telling me everything. And he was like, and then I went to walked in the room and he had a list and he was just going on. And so we were able to start to just peel apart the story. Because if you go in seeing the patient as a train wreck, you’re going to feel overwhelmed.

And when you’re feeling overwhelmed, you’re just not going to show up as your best self. And you’re just going to feel defeated. So peeling apart, let’s not call him a train wreck. He’s a patient who is here for your help. What are his issues? Let’s list them because our brain makes it so much worse.

So yeah, the guy had a lot of issues, but we listed them and then able to peel apart what can he do and what can he not do? What does it mean to be referred out and what is something that he can just help this patient along the journey that he’s not going to fix? So just getting some clarity there.

He was able to reflect back on what he actually was accomplishing with the patient. And he was able he was one of the ones in my pilot. We did a six week and he was over that six. Able to start, stop seeing patients, like an easy patient or a train wreck patient, like starting to see them as human again.

And I think, we all do that over the time of our training because we’re so stressed that we start to depersonalize and lose the humanity. But he was able to tap back into that. I don’t know. Do you want more stories?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: There was good, but I know you also have a a short amount of time too, but I think we can all, I think that, can we now officially say that these types of coaches had, has to be from a physical.

When you’re talking with a resident, can we officially make that announcement because I can not imagine someone who has not gone through the trenches explaining who has not gone through the things that we have both have done. It’s it’s not going to connect with that resident. Yes or no?

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I’m going to make room for both. I think there may be some ability to connect, but I think that it’s so much more efficient, right? Like. When a resident tells me they score a one in their milestones. I know what that means. I don’t have to be like one that stinks. That’s terrible. I said, oh, that’s on target for a first-year resident.

Like I don’t have to go through that learning curve and it’s not on them to have the burden. And they know that I get it. They know that I’ve been there. And so I do think it really adds to the connection, the trust and the efficiency to move forward.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: You’re being a little political, but okay. Yeah!

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I enjoy having my own physician coach and I really appreciate the benefits that I do have of being a physician coach. How’s that?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, that’s perfect. Tanya lots of great information. I know there’s people listening on say, maybe they’re, they know a resident or they are a resident.

We have, we do have residents who listen to on. And the residency program could use this work. Can they go to get more information about what.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So you can go to www.joyinfamilymedicine.com which is the name of my business. I have a blog on there that has some free value there as well. And I’m on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and YouTube. So wherever they prefer to find me, they can find me.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And let’s talk about your programs too, because you have you told us about just before the call, you, you got some unique ways of working with individuals or. Oh, residency’s.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. So for the residency programs, I have two offers. One is that hybrid program where I can coach a group of residents.

Right now I have a residency program where I’m coaching them and another residency program. I’m coaching or I can coach the faculty and they get group coaching, some toolbox talks, which are real short good tools. And then one-on-one sessions. I also for individual early career physicians or residents or faculty that wants to do it on their own, I have a 12 week program that kind of takes them through decreased.

The unnecessary suffering find ways to renew mental and physical energy and foster their ideal future. So all of that is on the web.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And just like on a personal and then note how much has coaching changed your life? Being a coach,

huge impacts every area of my life from my clinical interactions, how I interact with patients, how I act with my adult children, how I interact with my spouse and my family members, and how I view things with a lot more ease and a lot less.

Oh I can definitely see that. Like I said, you definitely see in here, the passion that you have, Dr. Tommy Taylor, thank you so much for sharing that, sharing your time and your sharing your knowledge with us today.

Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Great. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And thank you for everyone for listening.

If you are a resident, know of a resident, know a residency program that could use Dr. Tonya’s services go out and reach out to us. We’d be happy to chat with you, but, I think the problem is going to solve itself. There, the coaches are there for a reason. It doesn’t take a lot to go out. I assume you use a free consultation.

If they offer just a phone call and she’ll even contact you from all the way from Alaska to so thank you again and thanks everybody for listening as always keep moving forward.

Have you been labeled a workaholic? Ever been accused of being a perfectionist?  Most doctors have, and despite what society thinks, these qualities are a sure path to burnout.

On this episode, you’ll listen in on a fascinating discussion with practicing primary care internist and physician life coach Dr. Kara Pepper.  She seemed to have the life most would envy, starting as a young professional ballet dancer in her teenage years, then transitioning to a well-respected, high-achieving physician.  But inside her walls were crumbling, inevitably leading towards a dark and dangerous path,  if it were not for one crucial intervention in her career that lead to salvation.

She now coaches other doctors that you can escape burnout if you recognize the warning signs early, and is the living embodiment that there is a path for you ahead to live a life of fulfillment and sustainability.  This is a must listen episode for all high achievers at risk.

Sign up for Dr. Kara Pepper’s Next Group coaching for women physicians:

Kara Pepper MD 

https://www.karapeppermd.com/

Dr. Kara Pepper’s Physician Coaches Profile:
https://www.physiciancoaches.com/coaching-category/kara-pepper

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Transcript:

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I’ve heard this name for a while now, and she. Probably one of the most predominant life coaches that I know there, but she talks about other subjects that I don’t think too many life coaches really discussed and we’ll get into it.

She’s a practicing primary care internist. She who underwent burnout, but she rebuilt her life in career. She now focuses on coaching that is forward facing, evidence-based helping high achieving perfectionists, I guess some physicians may be that are undergoing burnout and are looking for career transitions. She provides one-on-one coaching lead retreats, and she speaks about topics around a breath, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, wellness, and career transition. She also is involved in group coaching and she’s got one for women’s physicians.

And we’ll talk about soon, but I’d like to introduce to the show Dr. Kara Pepper, Kara, how are you doing? Thanks for joining us on the show.

All right. I gave that quick introduction, but I just stumbled right through it. So I always like it best to hear it from the person who experienced this. Tell it, tell us about your journey from internist to, to coach probably something that you didn’t plan on when you went into medical school.

Kara Pepper MD: Definitely not! None of this was really in my plans. My original plan was to be a professional ballet dancer, which I was straight out of high school and loved it, but ultimately had career ending injuries due to underlying eating disorder. And so found my way into medicine. And dancers and doctors are the same people.

They’re lifelong learners. They’re high achieving, they are workaholics. So I brought all of my perfectionism and workaholism with me into a career in medicine. Ultimately became that primary care internist, which I love. It’s like solving puzzles all day long. But just got typically burned out. I took a sabbatical thinking back to my practice after finding coaching, because it helped me really clear up all that burnout mindset that I was in.

And I’m still practicing there today. And so along the way became a coach really to help other physicians who are struggling with those same issues, burnout and perfectionism.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I want to talk about it a little bit more and just delve into it. And I know it might need to get personal, but, burnout people experience burnout, for different reasons in medicine.

Particular and burnout. And again, I think to come to a time, which is probably not the most present for you, what were some areas that you felt.

Kara Pepper MD: Work was really my drug of choice. We don’t feel good. We always find ways to feel better. And so some people eat and some people drink for me, it was working. And it was easy to feel good about the work that I was doing, but also avoid all the things that were problematic for me.

And so at that season of my life I joined a high achieving practice. One to be a great doctor to my patients, had no boundaries and really. Over-delivering care with the way to practice at a spouse who travels full-time with his career. I had two young children and there’s just not enough hours in the day to be everything to everyone.

And so I basically worked myself into a place where I felt like I was failing and I was really ashamed of that all the time. And I clearly thought everyone will send their act together. When in reality we know that’s not true, we’re all just trying to make it. And so it really got to a place where I just couldn’t get out of bed.

And so I said, I need to ask for help, which was a really hard thing for me as the person who had all the answers.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Now, it sounds you learn from your ballet training and you understand about this, having this being in a world where, performance is everything, lots of demands to yourself, but did you have, was it just like you woke up one day and you decided to do it or were there people telling you, Hey, you can’t be doing this. Were there any circumstances like that?

Kara Pepper MD: And told me that I could not keep working.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah. We’re there. For example, in it, for me, it was my wife who says, you can’t keep doing this anymore. I’m seeing you. And you are not the person that you were irritable. I’m angry. I’m dreading, I would have an awful remark is oh, it’s a Monday.

I can’t. I might be joking about it, but I was like, I’m dreading coming in. Where there anybody that surrounded you or did you colleagues or, family member that because it’s often times you don’t know, what it is or talk about, or maybe

Kara Pepper MD: you did. Yeah. You’re exactly right. I knew I didn’t feel great.

That was for sure. But I was pretty numb. I’d just been working to that place of feeling nothing. And often people would say wow, you’ve got a husband, who’s not home. And two young kids at home and you’re working 60 plus hours a week. How do you do that? And what I would hear was not, wow, that’s so much, you should really take care of yourself.

What I heard. Clearly, if I could just work harder, I wouldn’t feel like this. It’s like the perfectionist fantasy. If I could just do enough, I can feel okay about myself and then I won’t have to have this judgment or criticism and then I can be okay, but we never reached that. Enoughness right.

So there was no amount of work that ever made me feel better. It just continued to avalanche to this place where I simply could not keep up with what I was doing. Yeah, there’s people around me saying what is going on with you, but I wasn’t willing to hear it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I definitely resonate with that for me. I was in a group practice, but it was more of a, “this is how it is, this is the way medicine is these days. And you either got to suck it up and be a team player. And that’s how it was. And that’s not what, how I envisioned.” So I think. It takes so much courage to just say, enough’s enough and leave.

And there, unfortunately, are many physicians that are out there that never get to that point. And don’t even realize that they have an option for that. When did you decide to say, you said you were you burnt out, how long were you away from? From medicine?

Kara Pepper MD: Yeah, so I was in my seventh year practice and I had a good mentor who I went to and said, I need help. I don’t know what the answer is, but I can’t do this anymore. And he said, you knew you need a leave of absence like a year. And I was like, oh no, I was thinking like a week vacation. And I’ll be okay as if that had ever fixed anything.

And so he said you need at least six months. And so the longest I could have stabbed him to taking time off was the maternity leave. So I took six weeks for sabbatical. Now, me now I look at that and laughable. At the time I’ve bought myself enough time to not feel like I was on fire.

I certainly wasn’t well, when I came back, I certainly thing wasn’t anti burned out. I didn’t feel great, but it really. Spotlight’s that mindset of, I can’t ask for help. It feels like failure to take time off. I’m failing my partners and failing my patients. So that massive sabbatical, that seems like it was a long time was only six.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah. So was this person in your organization? Was he somebody close? Cause it’s very, I think that’s rare. Don’t you think for someone in that position to say, Hey, just take a year off.

Kara Pepper MD: Exactly. And as it turned out, he had taken time off a year off when he was about 40. And he had done some healthcare adjacent work and then come back to the practice, but had I not had that one voice that I trusted and respected to say, Hey, I’m worried about you. I get it in the way that I understand you.

And I’m worried enough that I really want to nudge you to do something outside your comfort zone. No that I would have ever done it. I probably would’ve just quit my job and never returned to medicine because that really was the fantasy I was having at the time. Let me just move home to Florida and open a yoga studio, because anything is better than doing what I’m doing right

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: now.

Yeah. Luckily that person that was in your life and again, I think that’s pretty rare. So come in your organization that you have that. So it’s been a year and you got a date when you’re supposed to come back. How were you feeling? Was it feeling a dread where you’re feeling like, Hey, I got this, I’m ready to come back.

Climeon about what was your mindset?

Kara Pepper MD: Oh, I was definitely not. Okay. When I came out of that six weeks away from work, I was functioning as a human, but I wasn’t well, and so I’m really grateful to be a part of a practice that said we value you. And we want you to hear, tell us what you need in order to be successful.

And so I unwound my 60 plus hour a week schedule to four days a week. Part-time. For truncated days. And so it allowed me to be able to practice, but actually still have some brain space. And honestly, it was probably two solid years before I felt like myself. And then in that window of time, I certainly continued to see my therapist.

But as I mentioned, I found coaching in that window and started with a coach. And those two things synergistically for me, really helped me. On what was mine to own and the suffering that I was creating for myself and really define what I needed to continue to practice medicine, which is really what I wanted to do.

I just didn’t, I couldn’t envision a way forward without their help.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Now, as we created physician coaches that problem, so doctors can find coaches more easier, but when that’s then how did you find a coach or you referred? Did you just go online? What was the process?

So there are some pioneers in the physician coaching world. And one is Kathy Stephan who does a lot of wellness retreats. So I went to hers and Miraval, which is spectacular. Everyone should go. And I was first introduced to coaching in that window and I thought, wow, this really. Something I can do. And also the shift that I really need. And there’s a woman Diane and sorry.

When, who runs physician coaching academy, she teaches physicians how to coach physicians a very specific focus. And I said, that’s exactly what I want. And so between those two I was able to open my door to training, to be a coach. And in the background of all that, there’s a third woman, Aaron Weisman, who is either a physician coaching Alliance now, but she was like grassroots gathering up all this kind of ragtag team of coaches and saying, Hey, we’ve got something here.

There’s such a huge community. Let’s get together and help each other. Through peer coaching through building business, through entrepreneurship. And so it’s through those three women that this kind of whole world got opened to me. And yeah, as you see this, cause I know Erin I’m like picturing like a, she’s got like a rope, everybody together and we sat around the show.

And so you certainly, whenever it’s done. So you decided to open your doors. So what time was that you said it was about to.

Kara Pepper MD: Yes. I got certified in early 2019 and started coaching then.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And so how did you get your first clients? How did they find you? Did you start marketing it to open a store?

Kara Pepper MD: Yeah, at the time, my vision was. Integrate coaching into my clinical practice. And I was practicing quotes, practicing coaching, getting the coaching hours just in the circle of people. I knew my partners physician friends. And so that first year was just a lot of it felt more like a hobby. And I need that in an endearing sense.

Really just fun and creative and exploratory. For me, it was something for me that I’d never really done before. And I had never opened my own business. So it was really just the process of learning and creativity, which I really loved. And then. That I started getting pain clients by the end of that year.

And then the second year was 2020, when COVID happened. And so particularly because I coach around burnout and perfectionism and I’d done some second victim work, I really built my client base at that point in time with a lot of one-on-one clients. And then started doing group coaching out of that kind of cohort of people who really were struggling with perfectionism.

So that’s found my way as the classic general internist. I coach everyone on everything. And then my focus has gotten narrower and narrower. So now like the perfectionistic high-achieving self-doubting women. Generally, those are my people. I love them. So that I ended up doing a lot of groups, group coaching around that.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah. That brings up a couple of questions that just off the top you said that you wanted to integrate coaching, with your clinical work. Now having interviewed coaches I’ve seen that where they it’s something that they’ve done at work in the integrate coaching. And then I know that there’s, some coaches were like, I’m doing this completely separate from the hospital. They would rather me not know my, like I’m hiding, but they would mind me not be associated with that. How do it work for you? And it sounded like, obviously you had to disclose that you’re doing this well. Was that a difficult question to ask, what are you to do this or that, or the.

Kara Pepper MD: I think it was on time. My hospital system that owns my practice was looking to start some wellness work. So it was part of the general conversation, so well received in that way. But I very clearly through, my non-compete contract just had to disclose coaching is very separate than practicing medicine.

It’s not remotely the same thing. And that was also that hurdle was crossed in terms of integrating it with my practice, as an internist. I would argue that every physician really is a coach. It’s how we educated, how we encouraged, how we motivate our patients. And it didn’t take me long in clinical practice to know that if I had a diabetic, I could hand them more insulin, or I could start to unwrap the onion and try to figure out, like, why are they struggling with diabetes?

And then maybe it’s because they have emotional eating and then maybe it’s because they have a history of trauma and then you start to unwind. So really it gets to this place of exploration, which feels very similar to coaching for me. So motivating patients for behavioral change since we’re all coaches, every physician listening is remember when you could practice medicine on your own terms.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: So you said like the first year you treated it a hobby and then, realize you’ve got to treat it as a business.

You’re getting things. Thank God. Just wanted to make sure that you are helping pinpoint. You want to make sure that you are helping them as best you can, as you are. When did you start to say, Hey, maybe I should start doing group coaching because I know number of one-on-one coaching or they’re looking into group coaching.

And how w how did that process, how did that.

Kara Pepper MD: So the question that I always want to answer for my clients is like, what do they need right now? How are they feeling? How can I best serve them? I never really went into coaching because I’m still practicing full-time I never went into coaching thinking, Hey, I want to, have this multi-six-figure business.

It really was like, how can I use this as another line of service? And through the COVID crisis early on, I started to do some group work, just small, mostly in line of support and doing group coaching. How I cut my teeth in that, but towards the end of 2020, when everyone was so exhausted and thinking hopefully 20, 21 will feel like a fresh new start.

A question that I kept asking myself was like, what do I need? COVID was a big awakening for me. I was living my best life during this COVID month, working from home doing telemedicine. And that really resonated with a lot of my coaching clients. What is next for you? What do you want to define?

What do you know about yourself? How did you outgrow this vision that you started out? I, at the age of 20 how does that fit or not fit you anymore? So this concept of like redefining. Life on your own terms and not living for everyone else’s expectations and really starting to value yourself in a different way.

That’s that was really the core principle behind what’s next. And so I just said, let me put this out there and see, and believe me, there is a lots of early entrepreneurial, jitters what am I doing? This is a big undertaking, but it was really well received and this amazing community of women who participated and the perfectionist piece of things really resonated.

And so then I moved into more.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: So let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about this perfectionism. So you probably have an idea, but let’s talk about it in your clients. What have you found and what are the struggles that we have with perfection?

Kara Pepper MD: It’s all, it’s a loaded question. I could talk forever, but I think probably the most salient point, remember numbers, that perfectionism is a hindering behavior that we all think that being a perfectionist means doing things perfectly.

And if I could just be perfect, I could feel okay. It is not the same as high achieving has a very different. Curiosity determination learning field to it. Whereas perfectionism really gets down to a place of worth. If I can do more, be more I can feel okay about myself. And in healthcare, although this doesn’t apply to everyone, many of us work and feel good about the work we’re doing because it’s a service to the world around us, but that can be a very slippery slope to.

A good doc, how a good doctor should behave the rules behind the implicit training that we get, right? You should be everything to your patients all the time. Never say no to a colleague always be available to your patients. And it really becomes this very slippery slope down to burnout. So they’re very tightly linked in my mind.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: There’s lots of, causes for perfection. Yes, it’s we want to do what’s best for our patients. On the other hand, a lot of times what we do in perfectionism is really kind of CYA. We don’t want a lawsuit. We don’t want to. So we’ve got to, that’s certainly a factor.

Also. There are things that, we’re one of the few occupations it’s life and death, right? If we, if one thing goes wrong, we could cause someone to die. How do we overcome these feelings of perfectionism? Because as I know, people who are perfectionist, I am myself, a perfectionist. We all are to some extent.

So we probably wouldn’t be here when, and what we know is that you just can’t shut it off in medicine. It applies to. To our regular lives and our spouses feel it, our kids are feeling that the way we live, we just can’t get it. What are the ways that we might find that we. Warning signs let’s say in person and what are the best ways to overcome it? I see the coaching.

Kara Pepper MD: Yeah. So part of it is I think the surgeons have a very great expression around this, which is perfect is the enemy of good. And so this idea that we have to be a plus all the time, it’s just simply not a realistic standard. And I think that saying really illustrates the fact that.

The self-doubt, the self-criticism the procrastination that I have to be good enough and do enough piece of mindset and perfectionism really can actually hinder your progress, hinder you from moving forward, hinder you from being able to like, make a decision and stick with it. So that constant self-doubt it’s there.

It’s really at the core perfectionism. So part of it is just recognizing is this showing up for you? And I’ll just give you a really practical example. Like charting is probably the most accessible way to see if you’re a perfectionist, right? What do you believe about your name? What does it say about you?

And so the perfectionist will say, I’ve got to write in prose. I have to have all the details. It has to be organized the right way. What will people think if they read this note and it has typos in it. And so the classic procrastinating, perfectionist, that’s always trying to like make everything a plus work often ends up with charting errors or charts that are piling up at the end of the week.

And so they’re never able to actually get through them. Recognizing if this is showing up is always the first step, just noticing. And then secondly, there’s some very practical tools around that. So we often talk about B plus worker. Some people will say B minus work. Like not none of us ever want to be B plus students.

We were raised to be A-plus students, how we got through all the training, but really focusing your energy on what matters. Like arguably with direct patient care or with your coaching clients or with your family, like showing up and being present is the goal, right? Having typos in your notes or doing bullet points in your notes or using auto text replace, those are shortcuts to just get the busy-ness out of the way.

So my point is recognizing where your energy really needs to go and then stop focusing on the things that are really distracting you from your goals. A very brief intro into ways that we can highlight.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I know there’s so many ways to look at it and I think also just recognizing yeah, there’s third activities that want to be the best that you can.

Let’s say you’re doing open heart surgery, versus, notes that, follow up notes or just. I dunno, like putting the garbage away think so. Sometimes it’s a mundane character, but sometimes if you have that personality, everything has to be right. And I don’t know what how’s that driven?

It’s almost I was like, I gave an example, so it was like a spelling bee champion. Okay. And like fourth grade. And if I see a misspelling, I can’t like, like I have to correct it. Like I have to stop what I’m doing. And I’m like, oh, I can’t read more because they’re like, no, but let’s say I’m looking for a someone to fix my car.

But if there’s a mixed spelling misspelling, I’m saying this, they’re horrible. They, if they don’t know how to spell I don’t know, carburetor cleaner, then I’m not going to go. And they might have five star reviews, but I don’t know where that comes from. I don’t know if you’ve explored it.

Is there something in our brain that we are like, who cares? Like we think about it, it’s I don’t really care, but I’m like, I’m trying to please somebody, I don’t know if you’ve experienced them like that or you discuss this, where does this perfectionism.

Kara Pepper MD: So part of it is that there is no such thing as perfect, right?

We can strive for it. We can work towards it, but this idea that there is perfect out there that is actually achievable. And that we can stand on the top of the mountain and say, today was perfect. It may be transient in the moment, but the permanent state of perfectionism or permanent state of perfect doesn’t work.

And part of it. I liked that you mentioned this word pleasing, like so much of it is really comes down to worse. And so if we think if everything looks okay on the outside, if I can make other people happy, if I can serve people in the right way, then I can feel okay about myself. And so that people pleasing behavior is another one that shows up in perfectionist because we think if we can just control everything around us and we can feel okay, It always gets back to like, how can I be okay with exactly the imperfect, messy person I am?

And that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t start to stop striving for excellence. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t care about our patients. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take time and detailed work and what we do, but the difference is. Allowing for self-compassion allowing to feel feelings like shame when we make mistakes, allowing failure to be data collection and not like a statement about who we are as people.

And so it’s a much more compassionate way to live when we say, you know what? I’m always doing the best that I can, but my best may look different day to day. There is no such thing as perfect.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I know, and, working with entrepreneurs let’s say for example, I saw, I had one client where it took forever to get his website up because he wanted to format it correctly.

And then when I look at his website, he says, don’t you see what I’m seeing here? This is off to the left by 10 degrees. And what happens is they never launch it because it completely blocked them. And I’m like, why is it doing that? But I see that in my stuff, it’s oh man, I’m sitting at this email.

And then I realized I put a, a semi-colon instead of a hyphen here, and it’s not the property, but no one cares. Nobody really cares.

I’ll tell you a good example of that. I was sitting, I was sending out an email on a workshop on perfectionism. I think it was, and it had a link to the recent. And I sent it out to my entire mailing list and the link was broken. Someone emailed me back. So I said, okay. So I corrected link and I reset sent the second email later in the day and said, excuse me for, whatever. I apologize. Here’s the new link. And the second link was broken to this lecture on perfectionism.

And so someone emailed me so third time that day it had to go back and I fixed the problem and it worked. But it was so funny to me because the old me would have just been like, my business is ruined. This is terrible. No, one’s going to read in the narrative, correct? Yes. I clearly don’t deserve to do this right.

I was, I’ve done enough work around this just to recognize I’m human. Like I didn’t do it on purpose. It just happens. This is part of it. I apologize and move on. But it was so funny. The feedback that I got from so many clients to say, was that like, were you testing us? Were you like showing us an example of how to be imperfect and keep rolling with the punches?

And I just thought it was like such an endearing. The statement about the community of people that I coach, but also just like here’s the perfectionism coach, like modeling imperfection in real time. And also just demonstrating like self-compassion is the antidote always to the shame that we feel around not being perfect.

So I just had to let it go.

I’ll give you another example, so I had my assistant and we had a co we had a course that were coming. And the course pipe part of the coffee, it said something like you can’t afford to miss this this program. And somehow it wasn’t communicated well and she wrote you can’t afford it.

And it was sent out to 3000 people and I still survived and we put into this, it was a joke, but you know what, that the sun rose the next day. And, we like to say we’re just human things. And that it just shows a little bit more conspiracy to, but yeah, we don’t want to do that again.

Kara Pepper MD: But we’re at the point it’s we’re human.

And to pretend that we will never have these experiences is unrealistic. And so there’s never been a time. More than now where we need to be able to like actually be human show that we are embarrassed or ashamed show that we’re overwhelmed show that we make mistakes and we get up and keep moving.

And so much of the culture around medicine is we cannot have any emotion. We have to be perfect all the time and we have to keep moving forward. And it really, I think, contributes to a lot of what you and I are seeing, where people are leaving healthcare to try to find other careers. Because it’s just not sustainable to believe that we can never feel human.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Exactly. And there’s still that stigma out there that we still have. There’s still, there’s still people who don’t recognize that, we are, for feminine, we’re still on that pedestal and we’re not allowed to make mistakes. So it is. I still keep coming back to that person who told you, Hey, it’s okay to take time off.

It just came to get, your mental health back because there’s still, now many organizations don’t have that. I know you’re busy, but I want to talk about the event that you’re having coming up very soon. September 12th, this group coaching program. Can you tell us about that.

Kara Pepper MD: Yeah, I’d love to! It’s group coaching.

So live on Sundays for women physicians. There’s 20 CME credits. So use your CME budget. If you have that form to come you can add on one-on-one coaching if you choose to, but it is really meant to be safe space for women who want to define what’s next for them. If they’re exhausted, if you’re trying to.

About career transition. If you want to talk about the real stuff that you talk to your girlfriends about whether it’s your body or your work or your aging parents, or how to get ahead and charting it really is a space where we work on the things that every woman is struggling with. So it’s built around the question, how can we make life easier and more fun?

And there’s never been a time where we need some respite. So I’m so excited about it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Let’s just talk about too. And then go to your website to get more information.

Kara Pepper MD: Yes, absolutely. It’s karapeppermd.com

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I want to talk about it because you’ve been working with the clients. I like to talk about what just love to talk about, and that is their clients.

Let’s talk about some of the people that you’ve helped. Can you give us some example?

Kara Pepper MD: Yes. So I’ve worked with trainees through attendings monthly, I do free coaching for residents and fellows because I really truly believe if we can get coaching in the hands of early career physicians, it will totally change their lives.

But particularly the folks that come to me are really struggling with. How can I feel better in this life I’ve worked really hard for. And very rarely do I have people truly leave medicine. I do believe that the core values that brought people into health care still remain with them. It’s just, we get lost along the way.

So really trying to rediscover and rekindle the love for themselves and the welfare service as something that a lot of my clients end up going to. But not always. I have folks who are making lateral health affiliate kind of careers as folks that are changing their life on their own terms. If they hand their work, part-time in the season of life.

But it’s really less about how they practice medicine, but how they start to love themselves and say, this is the life that is so short and I want to make the best of it. So that’s a lot of the coaching work for me I end up doing.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And like you said, you cannot love medicine unless you love Thank you for joining us, go to the website karapeppermd.com.

Kara Pepper MD: Karapeppermd.com. You can find me on all social media, Kara Pepper, and on all that

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, karapeppermd.com. Go check out her quick coaching program. That’s coming up very quickly on September 12th. How many questions you can reach out to her?

I’m sure she’ll be happy to answer your questions. Again, any last names, thoughts before we end the call?

Kara Pepper MD: Remember that you are your most important patient always. So our life doesn’t have to be defined by the expectations that we started at 20 you’re allowed to change your mind and take care of yourself. Exactly who you are.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Oh, that’s great. Again, thank you. If you’re someone who’s struggling out there and this interview resonate with you, reach out to Kara, I’m sure she’d like to hear more about what you can do and how she can help you. And for all, always guys, thanks for listening and as always keep moving forward.

Mistakes always happen when we rush things.  I’ve seen this not only in medicine, but life in general. We can also end up living a life of regrets and unhappiness if the switch is set on autopilot, where we are just going through the motions. Sometimes you need to reach out , take control, and press PAUSE! 

As discussed in Episode 130, I had to do this recently when our family was (is) going through some really tough medical issues. The secret to inner peace is learning to pause and be present, so says Dr. Jessie Mahoney.

A board-certified pediatrician, life coach, and certified yoga and mindfulness instructor, Dr. Mahoney draws from her 17 plus years of experience dealing with physician wellness in a large HMO, coaching physicians to find more calm, ease, and contentment, so they can create and enjoy a more intentional and healthy life within and outside of medicine.

  

If you are struggling with these issues right now or know someone who is, I invite you to listen to this captivating interview.

 

Dr. Jessie Mahoney’s  Physician Coaches Profile:

https://www.physiciancoaches.com/coaching-category/jessie-mahoney

You can find out about  Dr. Mahoney’s 1:1 mindful coaching, read her blog, and find out about yoga offerings, and yoga and coaching retreat opportunities at  www.jessiemahoneymd.com.  You can also listen to Dr. Mahoney weekly on The Mindful Healers Podcast and/or join her community offerings in the Mindful Healthcare Collective. Links for these are on her webpage.

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Transcript:

Dr. Mike: How often do you press the pause button in your life? As he talked about in a recent episode, I’ve had to go through this recently due to some really tough medical issues that were going on with my family. This pause allowed me a time to reflect and then focus on what was important in my life and my family’s life.

And it’s really given me a roadmap of why I wanted to follow and where. And apparently that was the right thing to do. I discussed this with my next guest, who is a UCS F board certified pediatrician with ever 17 years dealing with physician wellness. And she now works in coaches with women physicians, helping them to pause their life and showing them the power of intention, allowing them to find more ease and contentment in their own life.

If you’ve been struggling through these issues like myself, I really think you’re going to get some answers after listening to my interview with Dr. Jessie Mahoney and this episode of big struggle.

We’re going to be talking with a pediatrician and turn physician wellness leader.

They worked at Kaiser Permanente for 17 years and graduated from Dartmouth, went to UCLA, UC San Francisco, as well as become a graduate of the life coach school. And now she is involved in speaking about physician wellness, but she does much more than that. She is. She writes a popular blog called pause and presence for a life better lift.

She’s a co-host of the Mindful Healers podcast. She’s a leader in the mindful healthcare collective and a… get this, yoga instructor. I think I know maybe two other physicians who are a certified yoga instructor. So I’d love to delve into this. She teaches the mindful yoga for healers as well as host retreats and conferences around the world.

Welcome to the program Dr. Jessie Mahoney, Jessie, how are you doing today?

Jessie Mahoney MD: Great. Thanks so much for having me.

Mike Woo-Ming: I love you’re from the bay area. That’s where I grew up. We talked about a little bit about that. There’s a lot of yoga instructors in there. We have a lot of listeners on the call. They’re mostly physicians. They may be wanting to start their own coaching program. And we have some physicians who are looking for coaches. So maybe you could talk about your story and how this all happened.

Jessie Mahoney MD: Happy too. So I as we were talking earlier, I worked at Kaiser for 17 plus years and I was not only a pediatrician, but did a lot of physician leadership in terms of running the department and a lot of work in physician wellness and physician wellness was really my passion, but I also found myself unwell, as many physicians did about six ish years ago. And I had done all the things that we are supposed to do. So I went to an Ivy league college. I did my med school. I did all the leadership roles and I was still looking for the thing that was gonna keep me satisfied, engaged and passionate.

Mike Woo-Ming: Okay. Before you go, maybe we can define what exactly physician wellness is for listing.

Jessie Mahoney MD: Yeah that is, that’s a really good question. And I would offer that physician wellness looks like anything, but being a physician is really difficult. And so it’s being able to practice medicine sustainably. And I would say enjoyably.

So we there’s a lot of conversation about finding joy and meaning in medicine, but to be able to enjoy your career. And one of the things that for me, The lowest bar is to have your physician career not cause harm. And I actually work with a lot of physicians who experience harm because of their career knowingly or unknowingly.

We often do a lot of harm to ourselves, not sleeping, not eating… perfectionism, all of those things can cause us harm. And perhaps I work with many people who hardly breathe during the day and hardly use the restroom. And the lowest bars to not do harm to yourself and acknowledge your own humanity.

And I think that, we show so much compassion for our patients and we’re trained to do that, but along the way, we’re not trained to show compassion for ourselves. So to me, physician wellness is to have your physician hood be an add to your life. And an integral part of your life. I don’t spit spouse.

This concept of like work-life balance. I think it’s work-life integration. They all have to work together. And so being a physician is a healthy part of your. I think it has a bit of a bad rap if you want my honest opinion, because people think, oh, if I, they just want me to do yoga and then everything will be fine.

Or they just want me to breathe and meditate, and mindfulness will fix everything. And I don’t believe that’s true. I think that the system a hundred percent needs fixing. But why I really got into coaching and mindfulness and wellness is that we do have to become whole and healthy healers ourselves so that we can actually start to fix the system.

And when we’re coming from a place of burnout and exhaustion and being victims of a broken system, we can’t really find the solutions and that solutions need to come up. Come with, from within us, not from above us or outside of us. And so why I see wellness is so important is that if we can be well enough ourselves, we are brilliant, smart, determined, motivated, creative, innovative people.

We will be able to bring the solutions forward that are really going to.

Mike Woo-Ming: I’m curious. And going back to your Kaiser days, you worked in physician wellness, and I know a lot of Kaiser doctors. I know of a lot of doctors who work in big institutions and. Was the, when you would, you do work with doctors one-on-one and if so, how do they come to meet you? Because I’ve seen where it’s actually made mandatory for some physicians.

If you go where I’m talking about versus. They said I need help. And they seek you out.

Jessie Mahoney MD: So Kaiser has physician wellness programming, and it’s actually by the 2020, it was a strategic imperative to take care of physicians. And so I started at the very beginning in 2002 with when physician wellness, we were in a back closet and it was all the people that spoke.

Yeah said, like we got to fix this isn’t working. And I actually, Kaiser’s very quite forward-thinking. And so even though we were in the back closet, we were still allowed to meet, we still had a regional team and we worked from there. So each medical center had a physician wellness team essentially made up of a number of physicians.

So I led the team. All the medical centers I worked at, I would go from one to the other because this was my passion. And then we actually developed a regional team that coordinated it over all of the med centers. It was not directed as one-on-one physician wellness. So we would come up with programming and.

Towards the end of my career, we actually did a lot of training for leaders on how to lead a well team and how to be a well leader so that you could lead a well team, but it was done more at the institutional level, right? As opposed to the one-on-one level. Now as a department chief, which I also did, that’s where he would get the one-on-one person who really needs help.

The idea that wellness programming is that we would have programs that could meet those needs and chiefs could refer people to those programs. Most of the people that we would refer people to though were not physicians. So you had a mentor for example, but there wasn’t someone who was this safe coach person who was a peer. And that’s what I think is so beautiful about physician coaching is when you have a physician who’s coaching you, they really understand what it’s like to take. Call what thought patterns came in medical school and residency and in an institution. Also, we understand the institutional culture and how that may interplay with your own personality or culture.

So physician. Wellness would help to refer people and help people to understand what services were available, like employee assistance. And so they would have therapists who were available confidentially or there’s something called the physician wellbeing, which is for physicians who are in distress.

That would be the mandatory referral. Or and then other options of programs like retreats and workshops and training and mindfulness and offering, we offered physician yoga for example. And actually that’s where I began my yoga teaching career, teaching yoga to my department and teaching yoga to the physicians in my facility and running retreats for Kaiser.

But so there’s lots of different options. At Kaiser or TPMG is the Permanente medical group, just the physician arm of Kaiser. We, they do have other things really a lot of resources. So communication consultants, where physicians who may be having trouble communicating with their patients, that’s more referral based.

And so there are things like that. And so the wellness arm was really looking at. What do we need to offer to physicians? The challenge is of course, how do you do that within the pressures of medicine and the access and the funding for programs like that is growing. And like chief wellness officer positions are growing, but they it’s a very much a new thing.

And so I would say. Over those 18 years, there were lots of opportunities, which for me was fantastic. Cause I got to try out all kinds of things and explore different things with physicians and learn what works and what doesn’t work. But it is one of the things that I missed is I love really working one-on-one with physicians.

It’s a bit like being a doctor with your patients, and being able to really dig into the specific issues, as opposed to just coming from above and trying to work on systems issues, which. I think whenever we do something for a long time, we burn out a little bit on it wanting. And if it’s not your own business program, entrepreneurship passion, and you’re trying to accommodate big institutional pressures. That becomes tiring. And as someone who is involved in physician wellness early, it’s really pushing a Boulder up a hill. It was for many years, it’s the Hills getting shorter. And we have more help pushing it up now, but I still think it’s one of those things that is your passion and your passion, even just like medicine, your passion can also become something that becomes very tiring and you want to.

Pivot and adapt and do it in a different way, which is how I ended up in coaching.

Mike Woo-Ming: So is that what led to your going out on your own and saying like you were getting some pushback preps, you weren’t challenging enough or there it was pushback.

Jessie Mahoney MD: So the story about how I got into coaching is that I actually worked with the coach.

And when I hit my own burnout, who is not a physician because they really weren’t physician coaches, six years ago, she was married to a physician that made me feel better. Like I thought, oh, she’ll understand. And that COVID. Came from the life coach school. So I did my six months with her. And at the same time I did I went back to mindfulness and yoga and became a yoga teacher.

So for me, they’re totally interwoven in terms of tools that help. And by the time I finished my coaching myself, I said, I need to go learn how to do this. This is going to be something that’s really going to help physicians. So I immediately signed up and got into that training. And by the time I had become a yoga teacher and become a coach and started seeing how coaching could help.

I just saw that, my passion and what made me come alive was actually doing the coaching. Being able to make a difference on that level. So as a pediatrician, I work one-on-one with kids and I’m working one-on-one with the parents, but being able to work with people at a level about being a parent and being in a relationship and enjoying your career, that the ripple effects of that were so much bigger than I was able to make in my exam room.

One-on-one and that’s how I pivoted into wanting. To just do something more. I also mentioned to you, I’m a Berkeley girl and I’m like creative and not, and, innovative wanting to build and create staff. And so what I found is that was really at this like season of my life. That was really what I wanted to do.

I’d been doing this for 20 years and I was so ready to do something else. And it wasn’t so much that I couldn’t do what I wanted, but that I really wanted to be able to do it the way I wanted. And to, I have sort of someone who has a vision and likes to, play and experiment and really build things and make them better and better.

And I do find that I’m someone who’s like on that innovative edge of the curve. And when you’re in a big institution, There they move slowly like a giant oil tanker, even if they have the absolute best intentions. And I think that’s part of what’s happening in medicine that people see the problem in wellness, but our well, our medical system is huge and intricate and it’s like trying to, reroute a huge container ship.

Mike Woo-Ming: And you’ve had a lot of experience. I think probably of all the coaches that I’ve interviewed. I’ve never seen a one with so much years of experience in this space. And still you decided to go and spend six months at the life coach school, which I’d been just looking from. It says what could you actually learn from that?

So why did you feel that was important? And what did you learn?

Jessie Mahoney MD: I’m someone who likes to learn. So I didn’t do it because I felt like I needed a certification to become a coach, but I really enjoyed the process of working with people. It’s not just the model, which the life coach school is famous for, but the way to be a coach is very different than being a doctor.

So we’re not empathetic necessarily as a coach. And learning some of those skills. And I have to say that when I get into this school I’m learning what they’re offering and I’m filtering it with this mindfulness wellness perspective and turning it into sort of my own thing. And so I used it to learn more and to see.

The why of things. And that’s actually why I became a yoga teacher, too. It made this tremendous difference to me. And I was like, I have to understand how this works and understand the theory and the background part of it. So then I can figure out how to bring it to others in the way that I think is going to be the most impactful and helpful to them.

And so it was really more for the understanding. And I actually loved the tools. I think that there are a lot of really useful tools that are very different than tools that were taught in medicine. I have taken that training and really added into it the mindfulness, and for me, it’s yoga philosophy, which is mindfulness into it.

And so that shifts the experience a bit and it’s less in my type of coaching as much less. Model focused and more intention focused and bringing in some of the tenants of mindfulness, but the structure that they teach in the life coach school and the skills that they teach for me were very helpful.

Mike Woo-Ming: Now we hinted at it, but we didn’t talk it specifically. You and we talked about before we got on the call is that you actually left Kaiser. Who had you been working for with, for 18 years? And one, it sounds like one of the main reasons, and maybe we can get into this is because you want to just start your coaching program.

Cause you were not allowed to. Did you know about that when you were going in, when you and did it cause any resentment or problems or should we edit that part out?

Jessie Mahoney MD: I knew I knew that the Kaiser system, like within the Kaiser system and the way they do their. It’s you are in it and that’s what you do.

And I don’t have any resentment about it because that’s the system that they have. And it’s honestly a beautiful system. It just, at some people, at some point wants something different. Like we all need different things at different points in our life. For me, it’s funny, right? Coaching teaches you that, that system is exactly what it is.

So I don’t have any resentment about it. That was the system that it was. And honestly, it probably worked in my favor because had I been able to like, do a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I wouldn’t have gone all in on myself and what I really wanted to do. I will say the decision-making process.

Leaving a place that you’ve worked for 20 years was not easy at all. And deciding to bet on yourself and believe that you can do something totally different that you’re really excited about was not easy at all. But my growth through that I think is what makes me also a much better coach having been someone who pivoted and did something new.

I will say it wasn’t easy, but it is just the system that it is. And people who are maybe in private practice have different pressures and people who are in big organizations have different pressures. And I think academic places have different Pressures. And I think it just helps to see that was the system.

I will say that when I went to the life coach school, I wasn’t sure that I was gonna become, a coach and start my own business. That is not at all why I went because I was really interested in learning about it and I. Originally thought that this would just be something that I would cooperate into my physician wellness work that I was doing there.

But what I found after doing it is that this was really my passion and I was really ready to be doing something new. And so I think that in part, the mindfulness comes in there also because of the mindfulness really teaches you to look at who you are authentically and listen to your heart as opposed to your head and the contracts.

Pensions and all of the other things, and that you just really see who you are authentically and what you really want. And once you’ve seen that, it’s you really, it’s very hard not to honor it. And that’s really what you teach in the life, coach school, actually this idea about making decisions and when to leave or when to pivot.

And it’s not that you’re running away from something you’re moving towards something. And when you see something that you really want to move towards, it’s very hard to, for me, at least. And I think for most people you just start to feel out of alignment.

Mike Woo-Ming: You can have that attraction right there. Are you still practicing as a physician or are we doing this?

Jessie Mahoney MD: Yeah, I am not. And I will say that my plan originally was to, I resigned about a month before COVID came in. My last day at work was about two weeks before everything shut down. And so I was originally planning to do urgent care on the weekends.

Cause I wasn’t planning to leave medicine and perhaps do some kind of direct primary care or. Work with, I have a friend who has a practice and I was going to be able to teach yoga and coach and do all of that. And COVID came, which was totally unexpected. But when that happened, I essentially just pivoted a hundred percent into coaching.

And, I came to it with so much experience in wellness and I had been certified as a coach, probably six or nine months before. And so I was really, it was like I was ready to go. And so in many ways COVID was a gift because there was just such a need that I pivoted almost instantly into coaching and a big part of that pivot was my work in the mindful healthcare collective, which I can talk about a little bit.

And it’s a large group. That was formed, right? As COVID started to help physicians heal essentially and be supported during COVID. So we offer tons of free stuff there, but it also really helped just in terms of offering free coaching and offering for yoga and having people know more about me.

And In those first few months, I was really busy helping people in that way, almost a weekly there. And that really helped me, I think, to grow. I, to grow my business beyond just doing it on my own, and again, none of that was planned out. I, it has all happened. As things have evolved, you just pivot to the next step.

And I do think that’s part of this whole entrepreneurship journey.

Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, it is. It sounds like everything grew organically. So tell us about your coaching practice. You could talk about the people who reach out to you and why, where you feel that you could be the best help to these for these.

Jessie Mahoney MD: Yeah. So I usually describe it as I work with people who are successful on the surface, but struggle underneath. And so that’s most doctors but a lot of people really resonate with that description because they do feel successful. And on the outside they look successful and they may have lots going on underneath, whether they’re.

Feeling inadequate as a parent, or just not able to be present for their kids or that they’re frustrated with their jobs, their careers, burnout, many people who come to me think they want to leave their job, but they don’t know what they want to do. Feeling lost is a particular thing. The other one is just feeling that they’re not living their best life.

They did all this work. They got to this point and then it’s huh, this isn’t what I wanted. Or they don’t necessarily want to leave medicine. And I find that many people, once they do the coaching, they decide that they, their current job is fine. Some people decide, oh, Nope, I need to change. And some people.

Are having so much stress at home. And that is something that I do specialize in that when they feel better at home, their jobs are more workable. And so as a pediatrician, a lot of people come to me for parent coaching. I also have three children who are young adults and teenagers It dovetails into that.

And I think that the poaching work and the mindfulness, of course being a mindful parent and a present parents is something that we all really aspire to and how to figure out how to be a parent and a physician. The other area that I do a lot of work on is Marriages or loving relationships.

And one of the reasons that I got into coaching is at the same time that I had some burnout, my husband had quite a high powered job. He developed some mental health struggles and that really that’s really what pushed me into the coaching was like all the things. When things at home or a struggle which was really his struggle.

I just was like, this is the thing that sort of pushed me over the edge. And I find that a lot of people come to me with things like that as well. How do I handle this partner? Who is. As physicians, we have very high expectations and we are all human. And what I learned through that process is that when I did coaching for myself and I took care of myself and I stopped trying to fix everybody everywhere, everybody else got better.

And it really transformed really how I practice pediatrics before I pivoted, because I think. The way that we approach everything in life is with our same brain. So whether you’re getting coaching around work and your struggles in career, or your struggles at home, we bring our brain homework everywhere.

And so a lot of these thought patterns that we learn as physicians like looking for the negative catastrophizing always being. Judgemental and perfectionist and super high expectations of everyone that doesn’t necessarily serve you fantastically as a mom or a spouse. And I think I was a pretty good mom and spouse before, but I’m way better now.

As just having learned mindfulness and coaching and bringing both of those to those roles, it’s really helpful. The other thing that I like to say I coach on is getting rid of clutter and it becomes from the mindfulness. So whether it’s clutter in your house or emotional clutter, which is all that anxious about.

Your maybe your parents and how they’re doing things and impacting life for your children or your spouse, or we tend to carry around a lot of clutter around our colleagues and our, the decisions our institutions are making. And so that is an area that a lot of people come to me for. So most people that come are just feeling overwhelmed, exhausted, lost for whatever reason.

And it’s something that’s tipped them over. But really once you start to dig, it’s like a, it’s a pattern of behavior and thoughts that they’ve just ended up in that they didn’t mean to. So they’ve been on autopilot and the mindfulness in that coaching essentially helps you pause. So I call my coaching business, pause and presence.

And the idea is that you pause and in that pause, The presence is you notice, you’re aware that’s very much the mindfulness component, and then that’s how you choose how you want to move forward. And so when we lengthened the pause with mindful. Then the coaching can come in because mindfulness is really just about the positive being the coaching piece is the intention piece.

Then what do you want to do now? Where do you want to go now? How do you want to show up as a mom or a wife or a doctor or for your colleagues and and for you and for your career, what might be your passion? So from that point once people are able to be mindful and see what they really truly want, they can move forward in a much more.

Meaningful purposeful. And I think clear way, a lot of people just can’t see, clearly they’re just exhausted, overwhelmed, burnt out, and they don’t know what to do. I don’t know what to do, but I’m not happy. I do work with a few people who are starting their own businesses or they’re trying to pivot, and they’re just not sure what to do.

And it’s the same theory that when you pause and you reconnect with yourself and who you really are, that’s when things start to.

Mike Woo-Ming: I love it, that positive presence. I also love that description of that clutter that we can’t see that we have all over and we don’t know how to to clean it up.

This has been tremendous. You’ve got some you’ve also got. Workshops and retreats of say retreats that you’re doing. And tell us about the, about that. And I think you told me that you have one you’ve already scheduling it for a 20, 20.

Jessie Mahoney MD: Yeah. So I do coaching and yoga retreats. And the idea is that in the moment you get both, you get your mindfulness and your pause and a neurologic reset in calm and grounded being in this beautiful place.

And you get the coaching at the same time. So some people will do their. One-on-one coaching over six months and other people will come for a week away where they’re just like, I’m just gonna do this now. And most people who come like I need to do something right now, I’ve had it enough is enough. So I offer five day retreats and in a place called Santa Margarita, which is in central California, just outside San Luis Obispo, this spectacular retreat center. And they’re pretty small. So less than 10 people. And so it’s very different than like a comp wellness conference. And so a lot of individual attention and it’s on a.mountaintop.

Essentially, it’s like a sanctuary that’s in the middle of just preserved lands in beautiful California, right near the coast. And we spend those five days essentially, really learning to be again, rather than like constantly do and be busy and quieting your mind. Becoming calm and grounded.

So that then when you are working on who you want to become and where you want to go, you’re able to do it from just a fully nourished place. I have a other physician who collaborates with me, Dr. Ann canard. Lives nearby. And she is board certified OB-GYN, but also board certified in integrative medicine, lifestyle medicine.

She’s also a yoga teacher and an herbalist. And so she comes and does some culinary medicine and also teaches some of the yoga with me as well as placed her live violin. She’s also a violinist. And so it’s it’s literally gets at all the senses and it’s like a reset. I say, as physicians, our sympathetic nervous systems, like going like crazy.

And so we need to rev up our parasympathetic nervous system, get back in balance. Then the coaching can help. You seek really clearly where you want to go more from a place of ease, rather than just, sometimes when we talk about transforming, it’s like you got to push yourself and take massive action and do all these things.

But when you just heal yourself and grow strong, all of a sudden things just start to flow. Yeah,

Mike Woo-Ming: I love it. That this I’ve been talking about pause five days in this beautiful location. I assume that they need to put their cell phones away. Leave those in the car.

Jessie Mahoney MD: Yes, they do work there. And I will say because the retreats are treats for women in medicine.

Just because they’re so small. And so you come without your family, but a lot of them do want to be able to get, make sure their children are okay, so you have it. And it works. But most people don’t carry it around with them, which is amazing. It really is a pause in nature. So I’m offering two of those in the spring, one in March and one in April.

And those dates are picked because central California has amazing wildflowers and that’s wildflower season. So you get that extra bit as well. And so people can sign up for those if they want. They’re available on my website now and because they’re small, they do fill up pretty quickly. So if people are interested, they should check.

Mike Woo-Ming: Let’s talk about how, where can they go to get more information about you and about all the

retreats?

Jessie Mahoney MD: So you can find all the information on my website, which is JessieMahoneyMd.com. There’s a retreat tab. There’s a tab about joining me for the mindful yoga for healers, which is free and open to people who want to come.

I love teaching it and we have quite a community that joins me most Saturday mornings on zoom, because that’s what we do these days. And it’s been. Just a really fun experience. Very flexible. The beautiful thing about yoga on Zoom is that you’re in your box and no one sees how much you’re stretching, but the point actually is that you don’t need to be flexible to do yoga or stand on your head.

This yoga for healers is really about tapping into kindness to ourselves, compassion, being able to breed and heal and nourish yourself. It’s actually coaching yoga. That’s one of the reasons that people like it, if they don’t know yoga or they’re really uncomfortable, like just sitting and being this sort of helps your mind be distracted with mindful thoughts and intentions, and that gets you moving through.

The yoga and able to start a lot of people who don’t do yoga, actually start by doing these classes. And they’ve told me I’ve never did yoga before and it was fine. I loved it. I definitely encourage people to try it. If they’re interested,

Mike Woo-Ming: Mindful yoga for healers sounds amazing.

Dr. Jessie, this has been incredible. I can see how. Yeah, they’re going to your passion in this space and how you’ve been helping others, helping our colleagues, get them through this tumultuous time. Any last minute thoughts before we end the interview today?

Jessie Mahoney MD: My thought is to show kindness to yourself.

I see a lot of physicians who don’t even realize how unkind we are to ourselves. And part of the mindfulness is to become aware of that. And to, we often have trouble. Doing self-help or self-development or showing compassion and all of this stuff. And if you can just start with treating yourself with kindness, like you would treat others and listen to the things that you tell patients.

They’re almost always what you need to hear yourself. And then if you can start with that and start with just five minutes of pausing a day, we all have five minutes. I know, we think we don’t, but we do five minutes to take care of yourself in some way, whether it’s literally just breathing or pushing play on some mindfulness app.

It can be the start of something subtle or significant. I like to say. So if you stop being mean to yourself or take a pause, it’s the first step sports something.

Mike Woo-Ming: That was great. I love it. I love the idea about pausing. I think when we get in trouble is when we don’t pause. That’s where problems happen.

That’s where accidents happen. We don’t think pause and presence is the name of her program. Dr. Jessie Mahoney. Thank you for joining us today. Thanks so much. If you’re interested in coaching and feel that you need and she resonates with you, please check out her website JessieMahoneyMD.com, and you can find them her programs, retreats, all great stuff, as well as the mindful yoga for healers we’ll have that all available to you, whatever you do, guys, if you are out, if you have issues that you need to get resolved and it’s not helping, go ahead and find a coach. She did she’s. She has her own coaches, but whatever you don’t just stand there and ruminate about it. Find someone and keep moving forward.