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Assembling a Virtual Team for Your Business with Dr. Errin Weisman

“It’s hard to get good help!” Not exactly true.  Just like any skill, managing a team to strategically growing your business is something that can be learned.

Here to help us out is physician coach extraordinaire Dr. Errin Weisman.

You’ll learn how this burnout coach was nearly burnt out herself when managing her business.  She shares how she overcame her struggles managing a team to finally achieve her success.

LINKS MENTIONED:

Physician Coaching Alliance

https://www.physiciancoachingalliance.com

Burnt Out to Badass – Masterclass to help overcome physician burnout.

https://www.burntouttobadass.com

Doctor Me First – Learn More about Dr. Errin Weisman’s life coaching, courses, and podcast.

https://www.doctormefirst.com

RAW TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Hey guys, Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to another episode of bootstrap, MD. And our next guest is someone that I’ve been wanting to interview for some time. I mean, there’s, as you know, one of my good friends is Dr. John Jurica, probably one of the nicest doctors you’ve ever met. And I was listening to this podcast, and I could actually feel the cheeks of john blushing on this call, and I just, it was great to finally have the opportunity, because she’s gonna be talking about things that a lot of entrepreneurs need to know about. And that’s about building your own virtual team. So Errin, I want to give you a proper introduction. She speaks on her experience on professional burnout. She’s a family, family medicine doctor, but underwent burnout and she her kind of mantra is that no woman should ever feel alone, that she should be able to have a joy filled and sustainable career. And she’s able to transition from being a primary care doc, getting out of the realms of burnout and as a very popular life coaching. life coaching business and her she has a physician coaching lines so much that we could get into I’m just gonna shut up right now. Errin Weisman, welcome to the program.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Oh my god, Mike, I’m so excited to be here with you. Yes. If anybody hasn’t listened to that episode with john, I don’t think he knew what he was getting into quite yet.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So yeah, so just let you guys know, because I did clear it up. Sometimes we might get NSFW you guys

Dr. Errin Weisman
We’re gonna go off color.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
We’re gonna go off color. So I know that there is some virgin ears that might be semi some interns. Some people you know we get we get all types. Eric, you know, Mexico, premed retired, just just want to prepare you. But again, I’ve been looking forward to this for some time. But you know, there’s some out there who don’t really know about your story. So when you were in medical school, when did you say you know what? I think I’m gonna build a physician coaching Alliance. You never never

Dr. Errin Weisman
gonna be I was gonna be the straight laced. Go back home to the country. delivering babies go into the nursing home. Everybody knew me at church doctor. That was my grave right though. I was gonna do cradle to grave Dr. Quinn, medicine woman that was that’s what I thought when I

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
bring you apples and oranges, as you know,

Dr. Errin Weisman
pies chickens. Yeah. Yeah, honestly. And it wasn’t until I really got into the throes of medicine and it really creeped up on me honestly, like, the dreads about going in and rounding.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
There was that

Dr. Errin Weisman
hindsight. 2020. I really think that my burnout, I think I started earlier in that I think it was probably my fourth year of medical school. But I thought it was normal. Like I looked around at all the other students in the resident, I’m like, Well, I guess this is just what it is. Right? went into training. And it was always about like, when I get out of intern year, when I get to second year, when I get to third year when I get out and get my big girl contract, and you know, it’s gonna get better, it’s gonna get better. And then it didn’t get better. Within weeks of starting that new job, that big girl attending job, I was like, Well, shit, this is it. This is the next 30 years of my life. Like, where’s my frickin doctor medicine woman magic. I was pissed. And and at the time that came out his frustration, it came out as like, little needle pricks on like, on irritations with patience. It came out as just like the zombie mom who was just rushing to pick her up kids up from daycare, get them home, feed them, wash them and throw them in bed as quick as possible so that she could just collapse. And as I sat with that, I was like, this is it. This is what I went six figures in debt for I’m the first physician in my family. Hell, I’m the first one with a pretty advanced degree to be perfectly honest. And I just looked around and I was like, I don’t want this. But I couldn’t say those words out loud. Because at that time, everybody else was like you did it. Aaron, you did it. You made it through medical school. You’re back here at home. Like kicking ass taking names. But inside I felt numb. And it was when the Sunday dreads really creeped in hard, you know that feeling before you got to go to the office the next day. And it’s that dark cloud, you don’t know where the hell it comes from. But at bed, it feels like a dementor on Harry Potter, when it just sucks all the life and joy and happiness out of you. My husband, he tells me now he’s like, I can see this switch, when your brain started to process. And you wanted to hop on the computer and get on epic and look like what your your schedule is going to be and how many labs you needed to go through and who was going to be there that day. And it just came to a point where I remember sitting at our kitchen bar with my husband, and I’m like, I can’t do this. And he asked me like, what is this? Like, what so hard? This is what you’ve been trained? It’s not any different than residency is it? And I said, exactly.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So your husband is not in medicine.

Dr. Errin Weisman
He is not he actually is a teacher supported me all through medical school. And after we popped out a few kids, I was like, man, somebody’s got to be the stable parent here, because I’m like killing it. And so he actually, quote, unquote, retired early from teaching and is now the farm manager of his family’s corn and soybean farm. So he got to live his hashtag best life and he was transitioning and kind of going through, like, what’s my identity, if I’m not what I went to school for, so he was kind of going through his own thing. But we had gotten to a good, good place. And I think that was part of it that triggered my transitioning was because I was like, This is not how I envisioned my motherhood to be like to just be the golden goose that brings home the paycheck and then like occasionally checks in and sees people and saves enough money. So you can go to Disney World, like that’s not, that’s not what I’m in this for.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And you had young young kid, a young kid and Jenkins at the time.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Yeah, almost three and six months. Wow, when we had this kind of like reckoning moment. So yeah, that tells you anything, I had two kids in residency, and I still graduated like eight weeks off cycle. So you can do the math. What I did there, but it was legit, it was legit. And the other thing is that made it really hard is that essentially when I transitioned away, I mean, I lost all my community, everybody else was going to their different areas, setting up practices. And that bond that you have, like I know a lot of people have compared to like, residency bond is like, Band of Brothers like water. And like it was gone. And I intimately felt that and so what I did is what I tell all my patients not to do, which was get on the internet. And I found and this was back in 2014, I found 1000s of other doctors who were saying the similar thing. And that was just when like fire was kicking off. And people were transitioning to pharma. And I just was looking through the list. And I was like, I don’t really like any of that. But I was so desperate at the point that I was like, I don’t care what I was gonna do. I was googling how to turn my CV to resume, because I was like, I gotta find something. Because this, this is not it. And I was scared to death because like, literally, I’m a new grad. All that student loan debt, we just bought a home little kids at home husband’s scared to death because you know, he’s a farmer, and they don’t make no money. And what I found through those, those searching was this gal out on the west coast and she was doing this thing called entrepreneurial MD now I’ma do but I love my MD counterparts. And I signed up for it. It was like an evergreen program. Now, you know, everybody’s got one and started working through it. And I was like, I gotta talk to this woman. Because I think I think she’s got something and so I did what I know now is a discovery call got on the phone with her. And I felt heard. And I felt understood. And she validated that like, hey, you’re not crazy if you don’t want this. And…

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Was it Philippa Kennealy?

Dr. Errin Weisman
It was Philippa. 100% Philippa. She is like the matron saint of physician coaching. You guys don’t know, Philippa. We’re going to put her in the show notes. Because

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I don’t think she’s you know,

Dr. Errin Weisman
she she’s Yeah, she’s transition and doing something else too. But God, like she was instrumental in my story and just sat with me. Because she started asking me the questions that no one else had ever asked me. Like, the one that I remember the most and I talk about all the time is like, what is the one thing it was taken away from you, you would be devastated. You know what? I didn’t say my kids. I didn’t say my husband. I didn’t say my health. I said my frickin medical license, because I had that. So wrapped up into my identity. And that one thing that was my identity was also burning me to a crisp. So it was like this love hate relationship of like, I gotta let this go But who am I without it? And so she sat with me and coached me through that. And as we were going through the process, I was like, You know what, where’s all the like young physician life coaches, cuz we need this shit. We needed this shit in medical school, we needed in residency, we needed when we hit hard times we needed mid career we need all the way through everybody needs a coach, because it was such a powerful thing for me. And so that’s when I jumped into the business in 2015.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, I think I appreciate the story. But I think Philippa is like a South African, or is she? She is your shit?

Dr. Errin Weisman
Absolutely,

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
yes, yeah, interact with us lovely woman. But yeah, that’s great. It’s just a the importance of a mentor.

Dr. Errin Weisman
And, and getting somebody who not just like, pat you on the head and send you back to work. But the work that she did for me as my first coach, to show me like, No, you have choice in this, and you can have autonomy, and you can change your life, and all those rules that you’ve written inside of your skull. They’re not, they’re just invisible, you can change this, there’s no one saying that you’re locked into this office, or this career path, or this way that you practice medicine, like you can, you can change that. And so she was just, she’s been so instrumental to my story. And I will forever be grateful for her wonderful. And so that’s what my entrepreneurial journey started at that time, I still practicing medicine kind of started as a little like, didn’t really want to tell people about it. So I was just doing like coaching friends and family, you know, like toe in the water. And then I realized, like, I can do this, I really, I can help people. And this is a way that I can do it with a certain amount of sass that’s not being expressed in other places. And then the business has kind of grown and grown and grown from there. And so I want to come to your podcast today and talk mainly to the people who were five or 10 steps behind me. And teach them what I learned through the University of hard knocks what not to do, when it comes into the entrepreneurial space, and especially around leading teams. Because as as cool as it sounds of being like a solopreneur, this burnout coach almost got burned out in her her passion job.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, this, this is great, you know, we’ve had so many people who’ve come on to the show, and they feel that they have something of value, which I always, I always encourage you to get something of value that you can put out into the world. You know, why not share that? And that’s what you did. Because I know, as a physician myself, you know, one of the reasons why I got into medicine is, of course, the typical, I want to help people right. But for me, you know, writing the same prescription medications and adding the fourth or fifth antihypertensive, I didn’t feel like I was doing it. And one of the, the benefits, you know, of, at least having an online business is you can really just put yourself out there. So I’m not ready to make that call not ready, ready to do that. That’s fine. There are there’s steps that you need to do. But that’s what I always think that for someone who wants to start their own business, why not just doing something that you love by just giving your expertise, your knowledge. It’s not like I’m assuming it’s not like something you went to like burnout University, you just, you know, got certified. We all know how much doctors lift certifications, but your own experience and that’s something that you can’t take away, you can’t separate from someone else.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Well, and also realizing too, that your perspective may be the exact thing that someone one other person needs to hear to change the trajectory of their life. Because here’s the thing. We go to med school, we learn all this stuff they forget to tell us you can only take care of a finite amount of people. Like I really again, Dr. Quinn, medicine woman, like I was gonna take care of the world, all of Southern Indiana you just come to me and I would take care of you. But in reality that is not sustainable whatsoever. And so you’ve got to translate that over into entrepreneurship to like, you are not everybody’s special sauce. Like I am not everybody’s special. Believe me, you go look on the trolls on my social media. I am not for everybody. But I know that that doesn’t mean I’m doing something wrong. In fact, I’m doing something right. Because that means I’m not vanilla and I’m not playing. And I’m making people have a reaction, be it a positive one that they jump on the bandwagon and are like, all in badass. Or the opposite, who you know, they call me whiny millennial Doctor Who doesn’t want to work hard. And and that’s fine. They, they can have their opinion. But guess what? So can I and let’s the marvelous thing about this digital world is you don’t have to go out there and shout with a megaphone and and try to reach the masses like peloton does, you just typically probably need to be reach about 20. enough to get a side hustle started and get things going and get stuff beta tested and see like, do I really want to keep doing that. And then 20 becomes 25 and 25 becomes 40. And then you double and your ad. And then pretty soon you got this podcast where 1000s of people listen every month. And and that’s what I just remind myself is in all of these goals, this is like not trying to be like the status of target. Like that is not who I’m going after who I’m going after those that truly resonate with my message, who want to listen to me, who we have some type of touch point that is more powerful than anything else that they’re hearing in the world. Those are your people. That is why your experience has to be put out into the world.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So much to digest here. I like what you said about trolls, because I remember when I put myself out there, I was doing a consulting gig and and I remember just fixating, you know, 95% 99% to be positive. But of course, we’re human, we’re going to focus on that one negative thing. I remember whoever it is, and he said, Oh, Mike, probably he couldn’t make it as a doctor. So that’s why my business

Dr. Errin Weisman
been there. But yeah,

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
so actually, I believe that he you gotta have haters. If you if you don’t have haters, you

Dr. Errin Weisman
haven’t made it?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, nobody cares. You’re not making a difference you whether it’s positive or negative, like Like you said, You’re triggering something. And that’s when I think that’s actually an indicator of success.

Dr. Errin Weisman
I remember I got what the first time I got a one star review on my podcast, and I was just like, if I could have tracked down CIA pulled up the list were their houses, you bet your ass I would have went and knocked on their door and be like, you need to change that because doctor me first is not a one star podcast. But then I thought about it. Man, I and I got this from Dr. Ne Darko, like, think about the time that that person who gave you the one star review took to go into Apple podcast, and take the time to review your show and fill out all of those like, absolutely, you triggered something within them that they felt like they needed to share with other people. And though it may not be on the positive side, and our brain wants to like key into negative bias. Yeah, they did it though.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It just like when I when I left. And I was in corporate medicine, and my colleagues were saying, you know, I know Mike, what’s he? What’s he actually doing? And then not to my face. But you know, some of them actually became clients. Absolutely, years ago. So it all comes around. But I wanted to talk about this idea of a virtual team. So you had the coaching, you were doing, I guess, mostly one on one coaching, right coaching? When did you decide you know what, I need to hire somebody? Because that’s always a big question for people.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Yeah, the question always is like, when do you hire? I always said, I now say, like, immediately, but I want to give people some tips and some preference, some some idea around this. So first time, like I’d worked with some projects and did some like little contracting stuff. But the first time I really hired somebody was like, 2017 ish. I knew I needed a VA because at the time, I was still I would transition from family medicine, I had a nasty non compete that I had to burn out. So I transitioned and worked over an ER for about 15 months. So I was swinging er shifts and trying to get the coaching business up and moving. So I recognize that like, I needed an assistant, everybody’s talking about, you know, delegating outsourcing. And I was like, That will be great. It’ll somebody who can work on the business, when you know, I’m working a 12 and coming back and getting it done. It wasn’t as good as what I thought though, because you can’t like clone your brain and put it into somebody else. So the things that I learned from that hiring because remember, it’s not failure. It’s all feedback and entrepreneurship. So what I learned from that experience is one I needed to tighten up my hiring process. Now I had gotten this name from a referral who I trusted. We had done like a quick call. She worked on a little small project seemed like it went, Okay. So I was like, Yeah, absolutely. Like, let’s keep working together. And she was like, Great, let’s do a 12 month contract. And of course, at the time, I was like, sure that sounds wonderful. Little did I know that I didn’t recognize exactly what I needed this person to do. Nor did I recognize that this was her first time being a virtual assistant, and a budding entrepreneurial business that didn’t quite know 100%, what its direction was. So lesson learned from that is one really key and take your time on the higher, so slow to hire quick to fire. That’s my mantra that I live by. And I can explain the fire part later. And the second thing was, is getting really crystal clear on what it is the things that you need someone else to do. So I break them down into a couple categories. So one is the head on the desk moment. This is when you’re sitting at your desk, and you’re like, Oh my fucking god, I can’t do this anymore. So for me, that’s bookkeeping. That’s podcast editing, that’s writing stupid email sequences for when people sign up on your list. Like, those are those things. I’m like, holy shit, like get these away from us. But I know they need to be done. I know I can do them. And I’m pretty good at them. But if I’m putting my head on my desk, if it’s taking me away from that, those are the things that I know that I need to delegate out. So if you’re thinking of those things, write them down right now, there is someone who can help you with them. The second way to identify your needs are what are the things that I shouldn’t be doing? Now listen, we’re all super high achieving professionals, we can learn a whole bunch of skills, but you should not be writing your own contracts and doing some legal review. If you do not have that background, just like I shouldn’t be doing my own taxes. And that sort of thing. Given the I don’t have a CPA, no, yeah, I can use QuickBooks, I can figure it out and all that sort of stuff. But not just the time investment, but what’s the energy and emotional investment that you’re doing. And I get it, I get bootstrapping, because I did that for a while. But I also see now that if I would have like, released my white knuckling on some of these tasks, and found good people that knew how to hire and delegated those out, who would have been a much happier businesswoman at those points. So head on the desk moments, what are the things that you shouldn’t be doing? And then the third category is, what things can someone else do to make me money? So for me, I don’t need to be like doing customer service emails, setting up podcast interviews, answering, you know, questions about why the website course is not working, I need to say where I’m making money. And if you come and be my one on one coaching client, you kinda want to talk to me. So I need to be with my one on one coaching clients, I need to be with my burnt out to badass group, I need to be the one doing my podcast and talking on there. And anything else, those are things that I need to delegate out to, so that I can stay in my zone of genius, so that I can be the golden goose and make the money for my business. Those are my three kind of categories.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
This is great. Now, do you think that because I’ve worked with physicians, and I’ve worked with non physicians, but I seem to think physicians tend to be more of the I got to do everything? Mm hmm. If you’ve experienced that as well,

Dr. Errin Weisman
Yes, I have. I don’t know where that comes from. Because, you know, think about it in the medical setting. We don’t prep patients for the O r, we don’t get them set up for pap smears and get the little cup thing and the broom and you know, like we have people hope we don’t check the patient’s in or check their blood pressures. Now, there are some people in DPC who are a jack of all trades who are doing that, and I give them major props, but then I also tell them like, Hey, you need to get some help, too. Because you don’t have to be doing you could be spending more time with your patients. Anyway, that’s beside the point. But when why wouldn’t we take that team approach model that we’re used to practicing in in medicine and flip that over into our business? Why do we think oh, it only has to be me and I have a theory on this. I think it’s because when you step into a heart centered business, you feel like Only I know the message Only I know the audience Only I know how to convey this. But I’m going to push up against that thought because if you’re working with very good contractors and professionals and you’re able to communicate your brand, your audience What you sell why you sell it who you sell it to? They’re pretty smart people too, and they’re going to be able to pick up on that. But it’s up to you to start using communication skills. And if they’re not giving, getting that, like giving them some feedback and say like, now that’s not really my messaging, like, let’s try again, or maybe I would phrase it like that, and building that relationship with the contractor. So they can learn your style, they can learn your voice. So my head copywriter, she literally says she’s like, I put you on my shoulder, when I sit down to like write, and I can just hear you talking in my ear. Because we’ve been talking, we’ve been working together long enough. and nine times out of 10. I read through her copy, and I’m like, yep, nailed it. Moving on. Occasional, there’s some tweaks, maybe 10% of the time. But just think about, like, if she’s doing blog posts or setting up emails, she’s spending the 10 hours, that means I got 10 hours to go do something else. And I do a 30 minute edit. I mean, that’s bank, honestly. And so, it again, and this is a lesson from Hard Knocks University is you’ve, you are not the only one with the special sauce, you can share the special special sauce, you can teach someone else to make the special sauce. But you’ve got to be willing to give over the recipe. And you’ve got to be willing to communicate well, with your team.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, I love what you say I call it you know, for me, I call the RGA revenue generating activities. That’s the one that either I’m hiring somebody to do those RGA or I’m doing it myself. And I think entrepreneurs feel that. If I’m just busy, that means I’m doing something and busy and like I’ve worked with with with clients, and I said, Well, what were you busy with? What did you do this week? Well, I was like working on my logo, or I’m working on the graphics. And I go, have you ever done this before? No. But I was busy. So that must be good, right? And it’s just like, you just want to hit him over the head. Hey,

Dr. Errin Weisman
I’ve been there. I’ve been an expert on Canva. Now that I’ve sunk like 100 hours into it my first year business, I have no business doing graphics, or branding colors or picking out fonts. Like know that. You’re exactly right, like letting the expert do what they’re great at. And encompassing that is so important. You know, one idea that I’ve been trying on this year, because I am the burnout coach. And because I know I can easily grind, I can grind with the best of you. I tell people in medical school, I might not be the smartest, but I will outwork all your asses into the ground. And that that mentality is what burned me out, I’ll be perfectly honest. And it’s still something that hard work was so implanted to me as a child that I know I can, even if it means my death or illness, I can grind hard. So let’s try on the opposite Aaron, the more fun I have, the more money I make. And that has been a really fun idea to thread into my business to be to see, like, if I step back, if I hire someone to do this, and someone to help me with that, and I go and have fun, I come back into this space with more creativity with more spunk with more fire. And and that energy is what’s going to bring people to me. And so I think we have to remember exactly what you said like busy doesn’t equal success, we have to stop the transition of like time equals money. That’s not true. I think we’ve learned that through medicine, you know, like the almighty grind, and for the almighty RVU bullshit. And so we have to start looking just like in medicine at different payment models, you have to start looking at your time and different ways. And so I really think it’s important to look instead of like goal based living, which is like the to do list and like, in five years, this is how much I’m going to have in my 401k. And like, you know, having those hard milestones, and really switching it into more of a value based living. How do I want to feel when I wake up in the mornings? How do I want to go about my day? How do I want my kids to perceive me? I think that’s really super important. Because so many times, if you say like what’s most important, I do this with my clients. I’m like, what’s most important to you in your life, and they give me a list. Usually it’s like family, fulfillment, purpose health, friends, you know, the typical list. And I say, well look at your schedule, where do those show up? And it’s a huge mismatch. And so that’s why I say like, something’s gotta give either you have to change your values, or you’ve got to change what you’re dedicating your time to.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, I love it. So let’s talk about going Back to your virtual assistant. What would you recommend in terms of like, hiring them? Are you are you giving them tasks, it should be 10 hours a week, you do it full time, what’s what’s been your experience?

Dr. Errin Weisman
Alright, so through learning all the mistakes, what I would recommend now is finding those exact things that you need. Like, for instance, I use ConvertKit, for my email services and communicating. So if I’m interviewing a VA, to do emails and setup, I want to know their exact experience with ConvertKit. I want to see examples. And I want at least two names of past or current clients that they are working with, that I am going to contact. A lot of times, like people will get names for referrals or recommendations, but they don’t follow up with it. And I’m going to challenge you to say like, No, you need to follow up, and you need to ask some hard questions about expectations of this person quality of their work, and even ask them, How much did you pay for them, because, you know, they’re probably going to coach you a price that’s higher, and you’re gonna have to think about that. So this is the kind of work that they were doing for this person at $30 an hour, they’re now telling me they’re $100 an hour, are they worth that value to me. And so that would, that’s what I would do to be doing the interviewing process. And then what I do is I date before I get married, so I’m going to give them either project that’s a couple weeks, or that it’s based on like the project length, I want to see how you work, I want to see how you communicate. And I want to see the quality of your work for to do. Are you the type of person that I’m going to have to micromanage and answer every single question every hour of the day, or you’re going to take the project and run with it and come back to me. And then when I give you feedback, you’re going to take it and go fix it. Or you’re going to go like hide and get upset because I didn’t like things. And so really feeling people out and giving them a project. If you don’t feel like you got a good feel for them on that first project, do a second project and see and do a third project. And then after that, then I would start talking about more of a retainer type project. Because like, you need to see how this person’s workflow is, if they’re going to take 10 hours to set up a simple email series, how long is it going to take them to do something more complicated. And if you’re paying them on an hourly basis, I personally would pay a little bit more for somebody who works a little bit less than pay for somebody who’s cheap, but it’s going to take double or triple the amount of time and gonna take typically more management on my part. Because really, in your business, you’re three things you are you are the CEO, the high level, futuristic thinker, you are the manager, operations manager to make sure that everybody’s working well. And the books are happening. And then you are also the service provider, be at coaching, consulting, speaking, whatever. And so if you remember that you have those three hats, then you can hop into those whenever you’re managing people, because you’re not there to be their coach, you’re not there to to be their teacher, you’re there to be their manager at that point. So interviewing well working on a project, seeing how they work and then deciding what’s going to work best for you and for them, and proceeding forward. You know, maybe starting off with just like 10 hours a month, and saying if this works out, we can extend it. I wouldn’t blow it up to the whole, like 32 hours a week. Initially. I think it’s a gradual workup process, because maybe that person’s capacity is because they have three kids at home. And they’re single mom, like maybe 10 hours a month is all that they’re going to do, even though they want that like 10 hours a week. Maybe it’s just not going to work. So I say again, you know, go slow, titrate slowly, just like what we would do with blood pressure meds.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Now, you mentioned that your first ones, you got them from referrals for someone who’s starting new, they don’t get any referrals. Are there any sites you recommend freelance sites? Maybe Upwork? I don’t know

Dr. Errin Weisman
that. Yeah, there are plenty of freelance sites. I think the two best places to go is someone that you see that is doing things well. Go ask them who works for them. Like just go ask them. at me. The worst thing is they can tell you no. Or the contractor says like, No, I’m busy. I can’t take on another project. The second thing I was mentioned is because I talk on this so much and work with so many other coaches and entrepreneurs. I’ve actually set up my own referral system. And where you can just fill in a Google Doc, you tell me and I make I listed out so you don’t even have to like come up with your list. You can look at my list and be like, Oh yeah, I need that. And I need this. Ask how much Are you willing to pay? What level of expertise Do you want out of this contractor? I mean, if you’re okay with like working with an entry level contractor for this job, because it’s like, you need a millennial to do some, like video editing, they got that shit, you know, like, fine. But if you need a project manager or a high level, high functioning VA, yeah, you’re gonna want somebody with a little more expertise. So we tease it all out. So that’s actually a benefit of coming to physician coaching Alliance is that you get to use the referral system and find the people that you need to, through me, essentially, either people that I’ve worked with, or just through the connections that I’ve made and found found contractors who understand physician brains, because we’re, we’re a little different. That’s okay.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right, right, right. Yeah, you can’t just cookie cutter it. And then finally, you mentioned about hiring slow but firing fast.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Yeah. So I’m not without grace for people, and life happens. But if I am paying you, there are certain expectations. And I think it’s really important at the higher to lay out those expectations. So I’m very much You don’t have to have a huge five page contract document. But just having something that clearly spells out, like, these are the expectations that I need to have done. And then their contractor on the other side, saying, like, these are the expectations that I need for you to work for you. And so if you can very clearly outline and define those expectations, and then when they’re not done, you refer back to them and say, I expected email to be checked daily, and me to be notified on important things. I wasn’t notified. And so you know, that’s an issue that we need to talk about. I go to the extent to of just jotting down and keeping some notes on my con, because it’s a lot easier to tease out facts versus feelings. Because like, the contractor who like dropped the ball, or like, went Mia, and ghosted you in the middle of a launch, like you’re gonna remember that because there’s a lot of feelings bundled around that, when in fact, maybe you need to just remind yourself like, oh, her mother died. And that’s what happened in the situation. Because then no think, Oh, my God, it’s happening again. And so not really like an HR folder, but just something to remind me, and having really candid conversations with your contractor, and just saying, like, I need to talk about this, I need to clear it off my chest. And really using good communication, schools skills. I feel disappointed when the email is supposed to be checked daily. And I see there’s a lot of open messages, I need to have regular communication with my clients, and with you to know that this business is operating Well, when I’m not there, would you be willing to insert what you need? So it’s, I feel I need Would you be willing to, and if you can use that communication style. You’re not saying like you, you did this wrong, and they instantly go on the defense because you’re attacking them, but really using I statements, and really clarifying, like, what was the issue? And then how can we find resolutions, and I work by the three strike policy. So after like, we’ve had that conversation three times, and it’s not work. And I will warn people, I would say like, Hey, this is the first strike. Like, we need to work through this, I can move past this, but I just need you to know, if they do it again, hey, this is the second strike. And really, you have to say that this is the second strike. If we have another one, I’m going to have to let you go and in the contract at that point, and again, like in your contract, you need to spell out what that looks like is that like, you know, because it’s in doctoring to when you quit, you don’t quit that same day, you got a 90 day burn out that you typically have to do. So my contractor usually in there, they say, you know, like with notice for two weeks, however, if mutually agreed upon, will end within 72 hours. And so, you know, so that, you know, and if you have the third strike, then you initiate that plan. And you talk about what is the what is the exit plan look like? This is what I need to be done. I don’t share passwords anymore. And I use a system called LastPass. I would highly recommend anybody who has contractors to do that. It’s an encrypted way to share passwords, but your your the other side, the contractor doesn’t know it. But before I would have to like change all my passwords and so like I would just say I need you to exit out of all of my accounts, any sensitive information, anything that you’ve created for me and you haven’t uploaded to Google Drive or Dropbox, I need to go ahead and do that. You will be removed from permissions as of whatever date and then we talked about like when their last paycheck comes. When they’re last, you know, invoice will be paid or when it needs to be to me on that point. And you know, typically it’s pretty amicable then, because you’re taking the emotion out of it. And you’re just being very factual and being like this is this has been the pattern, this is what it is, this is how we’re going to exit out.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So, so much great, great content, I do want to, I do want to mention to you, of course, you want to be sensitive, you might have some family issues, that’s delaying. The one you want to worry about is the one that I had where the uncle passed away, and then the aunt passed away. And then the sister passed away as excuses. Or there’s like a real problem in there. Yeah.

Dr. Errin Weisman
And then you would just say, like, this is not a good fit. Like, obviously, you need to go either take care of your family or figure things out. Because Yeah, because, you know, excuses are like noses, everybody’s got one and, and that’s fine. And that’s maybe the story, the stories that they’re telling themselves. But that’s not yours to figure out. You’re the employee, you’re the business owner. And if you can’t do it, they can’t do it. And that’s okay. And it’s the same for us. Like, I think sometimes we delay getting stuff to our contractors or, you know, something comes up and we’re like, well, this is what’s happened, like, just state the facts. And then you can move through it and move on to it. Yeah,

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
yeah. So so much to go through, but great content. You mentioned a few of your own businesses. Give us some information on the physician coaching Alliance, as well as your, your company on physician burnout.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Yeah, so physician coaching Alliance was formed, because I’m kind of an out ahead of the physician coaching wave, which I’m glad to see new coaches coming into the space. But I was seeing a big gap from when people were going trained through their training. And then they were kind of like staying with their little hub of whoever they trained with. And I was kind of like, this is not junior high, like, we can intermingle. This is fine. Like, maybe you did that coaching school and somebody else did that certification and like, I wanted a place that where we could all intermingle and really learn from each other. Because there’s so many different styles and topics and approaches, that I really wanted you to be a very open and inclusive space. And so I started this back at the beginning of 2018, just as coaches who had come on the podcast, or that I had met through LinkedIn, or Instagram or whatever, and just invite him and said, hey, let’s do like coaching grand rounds. Once a month. Let’s get together. Let’s have community let’s talk about a topic. And we’ll see. And what I realized is like people loved it. Like we were just talking about such amazing things and forming this just like network and community, because I’m a good family medicine, like I like a referral. So if somebody comes to me with overdrinking, that’s not really my jam, but I know a guy or I know a girl who I can send them to. And so it really helped open that up. And what I realized is, I was essentially forming a community, authentically. And so we named it, we now have a very active slack group, we have three meetings a month that anybody can catch who’s in the group on all sorts of different topics. So not only talking about the different types of coaching and how people approach it, which is what we do one Thursday night a month, but also tangible takeaways. How can like this conversation we’re having today? Like, how can you build your business? It’s almost like a best practices like what are you doing? What are you doing? What have you done, that’s worked, but coming from peers, and not some like 26 year old business guru who just got out of MBA, actual people who are in our same shoes, and who can say authentically, like, this is how how we do it. And so it’s been a really awesome space, it’s open to anybody. It’s a super easy level of entry. You just fill out the form on the website, and you tell me, Hey, I heard you on Mike’s podcast, like I want to be a part of the Alliance comes to me and I’m like, Yeah, you’re in, here we go. And it’s just great to come in there and to meet people who you otherwise would not bounce into. Because here’s the thing, we kind of get this lone wolf mentality like that you got to like survive the wild by your own and like, you got to figure it all out. When in fact, it’s really a pack mentality. And if you can learn from somebody else, and you can teach somebody, collectively as a group, we’re going to get farther faster. And the whole preference of physician coaching Alliance is to bring coaching and to bring balance into medicine and I don’t know who doesn’t get behind that.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, yeah. And your your burnout coaching.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Yeah. So in addition to that, where it all started, you know, was the burnout coaching it’s where I’m still super passionate. About. And so the podcast that I started is Dr. Me first, and it’s me having conversations of just about everything. Occasionally I’ll let my husband Mr. Wiseman, come on, and we do a series called married to an alpha female. And so that’s always fun to get an inside look into team Wiseman. But yeah, come over to Dr. Me first and hear more about that. If you are feeling a little crispy if you’re interested in being like, okay, maybe I’m transitioning for the right reasons, but I’m a little crispy around the edges, I’d encourage you to check out burntouttobadass.com. It’s where I do all of my coaching. I do one on one and group because I love both of them. Like I’m sorry, but I’m never gonna scale to group only I still like just like a patient encounter with a person in front of you. I still love coaching one on one with the person in front of me as well. And so, yeah, that’s my coaching what I’m doing. And it’s kind of cool to have now built the coaching practice and now helping and fostering other entrepreneurs in the physician coaching space. I don’t feel like I have, like two separate entities. It’s more like my right and left hand now.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right, right, right. You definitely walk and walk talking the talk. And then the URL is physiciancoachingalliance.com. All righty.

Dr. Errin Weisman
Make it easy.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yes, you did. This has been tremendous. Just just been a joy. Any last minute words that you want to leave for us today?

Dr. Errin Weisman
I would just tell people don’t compare your beginnings to somebody else’s middle. Like we all put our pants on the same way. We all take a shower are the same. Like there’s nothing special about what I’ve become and what I’ve built that someone else couldn’t do with their zone of genius. It’s just having the clarity of what I wanted to do. The courage to put myself out there. And the confidence to keep going.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I love it. Aaron, it’s been a pleasure. I never had to use the word sassy through the podcast. So I think that was pretty good. But again, so much fun. Thanks for coming on and like to have you on again. And as always guys. Keep moving forward.

Filed Under: Articles, Entrepreneurship, Interviews Tagged With: errin weisman, life coach, physician business, physician coaching, virtual assistants for doctors, virtual team

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Become a Better Physician by Understanding Marketing with Kevin Cuccaro, DO

I love marketing!  And today I’ll be sharing a recent interview with a physician who has the same passion that I do.  Pain specialist Dr. Kevin Cuccaro felt that we could do a better job treating chronic pain patients, but what was the best way to share his message to the world?

Dr. Cuccaro become a student of marketing, and was one of the early physician pioneers who found success through podcasting, and now is the host of two successful podcasts, outside his medical practice.

In fact, by understanding marketing better he argues, we can become better physicians.  We could have talked for hours! There is a lot to digest here, so make sure you listen to this episode today!

LINKS MENTIONED:

TheChangedPhysician.com – Podcast to help you learn the mindsets, skills, & strategies to create the life you want. Cohosted with Dr. Melissa Cady.

StraightShotHealth.com – Dr. Kevin Cuccaro’s resource on pain management and pain care.

Contact information for Dr. Kevin Cuccaro – drkevin@straightshothealth.com

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Hey, guys, it’s Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to another episode of BootstrapMD. I really have the honor of introducing my next guest. He is a fellowship trained specialist and an expert in the science of pain. He trained in anesthesiology at University of Chicago as well as got a pain medicine fellowship at my alma mater, University of Michigan, go blue. We won’t talk about our football team this year. He also spent some time here in my hometown of San Diego, at the Naval Medical Center in the pain medicine fellowship program. And he has a program called the Straight Shot Health, which actually led to him starting his own podcast way back when, in 2013. And he also launched a web based course the next year, he refers to himself as an online physician-preneur. And that’s why I needed to have him on the show. I’ve actually been honored to be a guest on his podcast. Which, if you haven’t checked it out, it’s called The Changed Physician where he is a co host. So bring to the show today. Dr. Kevin Cuccaro, how you doing my friend?

Dr. Kevin Cuccaro
Very well, Mike, how are you doing?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Doing well. You get all your holiday shopping out of the way?

Dr. Kevin Cuccaro
It’s all computer based, right? It’s like, you know, it makes me think of, you know, first world problems, or whatever. Because the issue this year, is since we’re doing everything, and we’re pretty good about online shopping in general, before the pandemic. But then we get all these packages, and nobody knows who’s supposed to open them. Right? Because we have me, my kids, my wife, we’re all ordering stuff for each other. And then it’s like, what do you do? Because you check the order, you’re gonna know what you’re gonna get. And so it’s been an interesting thing. We just started throwing things underneath the tree, it’s gonna be interesting Christmas. So…

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, at least it’s more interesting than what I give to my my family, we’re just basically sending out the same Amazon gift card, but just back and forth. It just keeps on going back and forth. So I wanted to have you on the program. As I mentioned, I’ve been on your show, which you guys need to check out. It’s called The Changed Physician. Were going to talk about how you actually, kind of, launched that. So, I want to get back into, let’s say, 2011-2012. As you mentioned, you’re a pain management specialist. What decided you to say, “Hey, you know what, I want to start my own podcast.”?

A lot of dissatisfaction, and probably in common with a lot of your audience, right. So we as physicians, you know, we went into healthcare, almost all of us, I think, because we wanted to help people get better. And so when I did anesthesia, and then I had initialism pain, I did my fellowship in pain. And I was always interested in helping people get better. Now, if you’ve been practicing for awhile, you kind of know that in the field of pain, there’s not a lot of people getting better in a traditional practice. And so when I was in the military, and we had six other fellowship trained physicians, all really, really well trained. I was finding it very frustrating that we would do this stuff, obviously, in a physician pain world, we’re heavily interventionally focused. And we were doing all these injections. And I couldn’t tell who was getting better and who wasn’t, literally. Some of us were super conservative, and some of my colleagues, again really great guys and gals, but they were super aggressive. I would walk into a room and say, “Is an injection appropriate?” And some of my colleagues are like, “Where is an injection appropriate?” And it didn’t seem to matter. So I thought it was the military model at the time. And then I left military medicine, I came to Oregon there was no full time pain specialist where I was. I was super dedicated to like evidence based practice, I was following the guidelines. And within six to eight months, my outcomes were no different than what I was seeing in the military. Meaning people would walk into your office and they’re like, “Oh, you know, Dr. Carl I feel so much better”. But then you look at the chart and if I had done injections in their back and month after that, they were seeing the orthopedic specialtist for injections in the knee, month after that the rheumatologist getting injections in the shoulder, and then they were back to me saying either their back or neck was hurting again. I just didn’t like that. I’m like, something’s wrong. Like we’re supposed to help people get better. So they go back to living their life not seeing more and more physicians and getting more stuff done. So I started taking a really critical look at the evidence and data behind what I did. And I’m sure it’s not shocking, again, to your listeners that when you look at the outcomes for pain, they’re horrible. And I’d say the majority of the things that we do in medical care, have little to no evidence that supports them, when you’re looking at objective data. And the outcomes are atrocious. And when you’re doing things to people, that you think that are actually harming them, even if you’re getting paid to do them, and you went into medicine to help people get well, there’s a lot of dissonance with that. So I spent a lot of time going back and studying pain, again, looking all the science that we weren’t actually taught in fellowship. Which is kind of weird, because I came from a pretty good program. So the science of pain is actually advanced quite a bit, the practice of pain is still stuck about 60 years behind. Yeah, and really the model that we have is not set up to help people get well. And I was recognizing very, very quickly, in a typical medical practice, there’s no resiliency and there’s no flexibility in order to create that better pathway. Meaning we’re all RVU generated, or heavily procedural based, the procedures make a bunch of money, there’s no time to the education to really incorporate behavioral health techniques to get in a true multi disciplinary team. And yeah, so that’s that’s sort of what accelerated my path into more of a physician-penuership domain. Meaning, I started looking at how does behavioral change occur? We’ve had actually a talk, I think, on our podcast about that, because that led me into direct response marketing. Because you were like, well, who changes behavior or gets people to take action? It’s marketers. And then that kind of lead into my podcast and trying to do two things. One is, get people aware of the discrepancies in health care, or more of the sick care system, like what can you do for your health? And the second thing is, then how do you create actionable programs, that people can start and go through and actually have transformative results. And so that that is sort of been what my focus has been over the last seven, eight years now. In working again, mostly with clinicians kind of trying to transform how they approach and treat pain through understanding it differently and applying different principles. So that’s a super long way to say it was mostly from dissatisfaction with the current medical system, and not seeing people get well.

Now, back then, or currently, do you have your own practice? Or do you work for a hospital system?

No, I’m completely independent. And I had a small, almost like a micro practice for a while, but I just closed it this last year. And the reason was, to get your referral volume to make that even worth doing is really, really hard to do. And you have to actually educate, again, mostly the clinical population, because most people when it comes to pain, aren’t thinking about helping people get better. From the primary care perspective, it’s often, well who can I get to write these opioids for them. And that is not my focus at all. It’s not the opioid side. So that physical practice, I’ve actually shut down this year, but the vast majority, even up until that point, 90 plus was working with either healthcare systems or clinicians and teaching them pain. So I had a couple of large scale grants in 2016, I got an extension on those in 2017. Had a couple big projects this year, with health care systems and some tribal health clinics in southern Oregon this year. So that’s where I’ve been really kind of falling in that space.

So why back then, because I’m thinking back in 2013, there wasn’t a lot of podcasts out there. Why did you decide to use that medium? Then let’s say, go to your local your, your society, and put out a paper and all that. Why did you decide to use that medium?

Um, that’s a good question. I have never thought about that, to be honest. So I did, I started doing a lot of presentation and speaking. So speaking for medical events, and I really, really enjoyed that. The actual podcast side, I think honest to God, like right now you hear everybody saying, oh, podcasting is the future, you need to start a podcast. Well, they were saying that back in 2011-2012, it was the same thing. It’s just there was nobody podcasting at the time. And I thought, well, this would probably be a good way to do this. It seemed like an interesting medium. And I like talking like we’re talking now. So that’s really what precipitated that. I think, again I haven’t had a chance to really think about it as much. You know, why did I do that? But I think it really just came up. There was no strategic plan. I knew I didn’t really want to do a blog. And yeah, I think it was just became an easier media and I took a course from a guy who was a well known podcaster at the time, slipped right into it. And yeah, just been kind of doing it since then. That particular podcast, I don’t publish nearly as persistently as you need to do. Like I’m sure from your experience, the key to podcasting is making sure that you’re on a consistent publication schedule. That was probably the biggest learning thing I got from that.

So it’s so it’s still active, but you’re not as frequent.

Yeah, I haven’t closed that particular podcast. And this is if you’re, if you’re thinking about podcasting, there’s a couple of different things that you can use for it. One, you can do it for education, right. From a marketing standpoint, you can use it to educate who your audience may be. The other thing, and what mine sort of transitioned to over time, it became very easy way for me to speak to experts about pain, like some of the world renowned ones. Lorimer Moseley, everybody knows him down in Australia. If you have a podcast, it becomes a very easy way to connect with people, because you’re like, “Hey, would you like to come on my podcast?”, and then you talk to them, and then you do whatever. So there’s sort of a network effect with that. And so what I do, I guess I’m sort of blowing my cover here. But what I do with that particular podcast now is use it as connection. Either to promote people I’ve worked with, so now they have an audience to see the good things that they’ve done. And/or to connect with people that I think are fascinating. It’s easier than saying, “Hey, can I pick your brain for your 20 minutes in a coffee shop?”. People don’t want to have their brains picked in a coffee shop. But if you want to talk on a podcast, people will definitely talk on a podcast.

You’ve alluded to this, but just just want to be sure, what has led from that podcast, what is what kind of doors have opened for you?

I think really connecting with people that you normally wouldn’t have an opportunity to connect with. You know, if you’re looking at from a business side, it’s probably a little bit harder now than it was then. It just sounds so much better. Like, there’s something in it the interviewee that you have, if you have something to offer them. You know, if you’re doing something like hey, I really like what you do, but I want to sit down and talk to you. Other than the good graces and someone feeling good about helping somebody, which is a great reason to do it, there really isn’t anything long term for that individual. But if you have a podcast now, at least they know, you know, if I go and educate you, and I asked you these questions, and we’re having a great discussion, somebody else may hear about that. And they may discover me that way. And so I think a podcast and again, you can do this in different media, but a podcast is so much easier to have a great discussion. And so it allows that kind of give and take relationship in a way that is beneficial to both parties. I mean, I’m always kind of shocked if you have somebody who refuses a podcast. People forget, like, once you have a podcast episode up, it’s there forever, unless the podcast stops publishing. And people will find stuff that you that you published 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago in some scenarios that you would never have ordinarily connected with. So yeah, it’s it’s always great for the podcaster because you can connect with people that you really want to talk to you. And it’s great for the person being interviewed, because now you have this asset that’s sitting in the interwebs that basically it will last as long as people are paying the hosting fee. And that’s pretty amazing.

Yeah, it’s just so funny. Just yesterday, I get an email from an interview I did pre COVID, I can’t even remember. And they liked something that I said back then and I’m like, I don’t even remember back then. But you’re right, it’s permanent. And you have all of these distribution channels. I mean, why not take advantage of it? I’m just kind of curious, just kind of being a geek, did your audio equipment change from 2013 to today?

No, so the guy I took the course with, I’m not even sure if he does podcasts anymore because he did it for so long and then kind of transitioned. He wanted to be like the Tony Robbins that didn’t cuss. His name’s Cliff Ravenscraft. He’s hardcore and used super hardcore audio file. So we’re in this course and he’s like, this is what you need. You need this microphone. And I’m like, that’s a $600 microphone. You need this, I didn’t get the $600 microphone. But you know, he said get a soundboard, get an external recording device, get this. And because of that kind of foundation, which was overkill I think a lot of ways, but I haven’t had to change anything. Like it’s all hardware. I’m sitting I’m looking at it right now. And it’s still working really, really good because it was quality equipment, and so I haven’t had to do anything there. Which is kind of nice. Right?

That’s very cool. And just so that people on the audience know that name of the podcast is Straight Shot Health Talk.

Okay, awesome. So you got your practice, you got this podcast that you’re doing on the side. When did you decide to say, Hey, you know what I want to do a second podcast?

Unknown Speaker
That one came about with, with a desire to meet dynamic people again. So in the pain world, there’s a lot of passion surrounding pain. The conversations oftentimes get overshadowed by the whole opioid issue. There’s some really fantastic people. And there’s some amazing things that occur. But there’s a lot of anger too, and they’re rightly so on many different sides. And that kind of negativity gets a little rough at times. And so with the podcast, my co host, Dr. Melissa Katie, who is also anesthesia and pain trained, who doesn’t do interventions anymore. We’re like, well, we need to get around positive people. And the people that we enjoyed to be around were entrepreneurs, and specifically physician entrepreneurs. And so the reason we started that podcast, then was to connect with other physician entrepreneurs, so that you in some ways maintain your own sanity. Becuase I know you’ve felt this way, Mike. Like, when you’re thinking on your own and working out in the ethers of the internet, you feel isolated, right? Nobody seems to understand what you do. Everybody looks at you like you’re crazy. Like, what are you doing practice for the hospital? You’re not employed? You’re doing this thing, blah, blah, blah. And, it’s hard to talk to people. You can’t necessarily talk about the purpose of a podcast, or lead generation, or creating solutions and things because people have no idea what you’re talking about. So with that particular podcast, again, it’s meeting physicians, predominantly entrepreneurs. And the other back end of that is, to encourage physicians specifically, there’s this whole burnout thing. And I don’t like the burnout, per se, but there’s a lot of physicians feeling trapped. And our purpose there is to say, there’s so many opportunities for physicians, if you’re thinking differently. And that was another reason to do it is meet a lot of people who are already thinking differently, encourage other physicians to start thinking differently, because ultimately, the solutions for the future of healthcare are going to come from us. But they’re not going to be in this, you know, the traditional medical model is not going to be where healthcare transformation comes from. It’s going to come from physician and entrepreneurs devising the solutions for the 21st century.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I’m curious, how did you and Dr. Katie meet? You meant before? Or like some type of podcast physician society that you got together on?

It was pain. Yeah, we met through pain. Now um, we had another colleague, another physician colleague, there’s like, there’s a couple like lights out in the dark. We all started connecting. They introduced me to Melissa, we actually went up to a more pain specific event in Seattle, I think in 2018, and just kind of hit it off. She interviewed me for a project that she has, I think I brought her on to my podcast. We had started another podcast, we’d briefly run for about 40 episodes I think, it was more pain specific. And then we decided to transfer into a positive audience. Yeah, so we had a project before The Changed Physician.

So what are your observations on having a co host, versus doing it on your own?

Dr. Kevin Cuccaro
Oh, so easier, so much easier. So much, the hard thing with that particular podcast when I started, it was just me. Because I made the mistake of you know, one of the things in entrepreneurship is you learn to model right. And most podcasts, were doing these interview based podcasts, which they’re still doing now. And I’m like, everybody’s doing interview podcast, I’m not gonna do an interview podcast. I’m gonna do solo episodes. Well, generating solo content that you can then discuss in a way that flows well is really, really, really hard to do. And especially when you’re not sure if anybody’s listening because nobody’s listening to you when you start. With a co host, what that allows you to do is, it’s just so much more dynamic, because there’s always this dialogue. Like you and I, because we can have a conversation, now we have no idea where this podcast is going to go. As long as we’re not babbling it should be interesting for the audience.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Hey, don’t give away all my secrets here.

Dr. Kevin Cuccaro
They’re gonna get something out of it right? And so the advantages of having a co host, what we’ve even seen, with when we have a guest on now we have two of us. Oftentimes one of us will take the conversation in a way that I didn’t even anticipate. So it’s synergistic in a lot of ways. It’s more fun and then the other part is of course, you can split the labor. Melissa’s more technically minded she can do things with like editing than I have no idea what she does. I can do a little bit more on the marketing side. So and you have a built in accountability buddy too. That’s the other thing, like even when you feel like not doing it all the sudden, you get the email, hey, we have an interview in two hours or whatever. And so, it’s been great to have a partner.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Now, just to name that podcast, that’s called The Changed Physician, I encourage you guys to check it out. I’ve had the pleasure of doing two episodes with you. You’ve also been able to attract some really interesting guests. I’m trying to see the one that they came across. I forgot his name, but he’s from the UK. He’s big in productivity. He’s got a couple million followers. It’s kind of one of my bucket list wants to get. How were you able to get ahold of him?

Dr. Kevin Cuccaro
Melissa just reached out. And again, it comes down to, you have a podcast and it really comes down to to reaching out to individuals, and then making sure that it’s in a way that is constructive, right? You’re not asking for anything other than time, although that can be a huge deal. What’s really great about Olli is, he’s just a great guy. And we had reached out to him before he had a million YouTube subscribers. But, you know, he’s actually he was very conscious. And he’s been publishing stuff for, he’s young, he’s like, 25-26 I think, he’s been doing stuff online for at least 10 years. So he started in his late teens. And, he is just a really giving guy. He’s like, you know, I always want to make time for people who are doing things and so he was happy to do it. Now there’s been a lot of other people who have a million plus YouTube subscribers that haven’t responded. So it doesn’t always happen with everybody. But you know, you ask and people who understand will often say hey, I remember what it was like when you’re starting something new or before I had, you know, a million or even 100,000 subscribers. So it was fun to talk with him and also to get his perspectives on a different style of medicine. Because, if you watch some of that episode that he did with us you know, there’s always this grass is greener thing with with physicians. Oh, if you go to the UK better for you, you go to Canada it’s better. We’ve had Canadian doctors on and it was really interesting to hear their stories of burnout. And then Olli is like, completely different. He makes way more money through his online ventures than he will ever make through medicine. So to see how he did that was a treat.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, and I think last time I checked he put his medicine medical career hold, just because he’s just doing so well online.

Yeah, so the system they have is a little bit different. So the junior doctor, which is kind of like being a resident, in the United States. And it’s really, really typical, apparently, in the UK health system that when you finish that junior doctor status, a lot of them take like a year off. So we’re like, oh, this is something that you’re doing, actually a lot of us are like you’ve been killing yourself for so long, take a year off and then they go into whatever next where they’re doing general practice or they’re gonna try to do specialty training. And so, he was aware of this, he wanted to take this break. I’m not sure if he will go back and if he does in a limited manner. But yeah, it was it was really interesting. because that’s so different, you know, what we do here is like, medical school, residency, fellowship. Where can I get started? It’s like, freakin take a break, you know? Relax a little bit figure out what you want to do.

Yeah, I guess the only break is because I trained in Arizona and I was just waiting for my California license to come in.

Forced vacations, right? Licensure or hospital privileging or whatever.

I do want to talk about something that we both have a love of, is direct marketing. And you kind of talk to me about how I got into it. I’m interested in how you got interested in that. It doesn’t seem like something that would be part of a pain specialist curriculum to learn about.

Yeah, well that that comes down to that frustration.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it comes down to again, you’re looking at the date on pain, and you’re looking at it as it’s universally atrocious. Then what kept coming up is these few kind of indicators, and they were all behaviorally oriented. Like changing and coping style, changing and pain beliefs, distress management and things. And so I’m like, well, we need to actually work at helping people to kind of facilitate change within them. And then as they do that they can move and they can exercise, and we decrease fear, avoidance beliefs and all this other stuff. And I remember thinking, well, how do you get people to change their behavior? Right, because we aren’t doing it. And that first actually led to the book Switch by Chip and Dan Heath, which is all about organizational behavioral change. And that one blew my mind because it was like information doesn’t change behavior. Which, I mean, you know that I know that it sounds so stupid to say, but at that moment I read, I was like, holy crap, this explains everything. Because we’re always handing out a form and thinking that the patient is going to all of a sudden, radically transform. If I give them this little sheet of paper that says quit smoking, they’re going to quit smoking. No, it doesn’t work. We know this doesn’t work, right. So I made this thought. And this was one of the little hints of, of luck. I’m like, well, who gets people to take action, and I thought, sales people do. And so then I started listening to a bunch of podcasts and watching interviews with salesmen and marketers. And I didn’t even know what marketing was at that point. And the more I learned about marketing in the sales process, the more I saw, it was directly relevant to behavioral change. Because if you can get someone interested, you can develop that interest into a motivation. And then you can then get them to want to take an action based on that, because now it’s in their best interest to do so. That’s a skill that’s super useful. And when you look at marketing, as we had talked about. There’s two types, there’s like the advertising brand marketing, which is what we typically think of when someone says, oh, you’re advertising and that stuff is garbage, unless you’re Coke. Unless you already have, you know, everybody knows you, and you’re just trying to keep a level of presence, it doesn’t help you. Yeah, a direct response, then you know, when you start seeing it, and you start seeing it everywhere, it’s just amazing. And it’s been utilized for over 100 something years, the sales principles that they’ve been doing in the early 1900s, they’re still using them now. And then what I also love about it is then if you start looking at the psychological literature, so from social psychology, behavioral psychology, cognitive psychology, now we’re knowing why these things work. Why did these triggers actually work? And yeah, so it started in an interest of trying to get people to change behavior and now it’s just a fascination, I just love it. I think it’s the most fascinating thing. I like breaking down ads like to see how people’s funnels lay. Because it’s, just intellectually fulfilling to me. I just love it.

I know. But what it does, though, it actually kind of ruins it for some people. Because like, we’re watching something on TV, and to my wife, like an infomercial comes up. You know why they’re doing this, right? This is all scarcity and urgency that they’re doing here, you know? And she’s just like, lay off. I think you did kind of do the same thing, you got to break these down. What about, you mentioned the Heath brothers, are there other books that you’ve liked?

Well, specifically, the Heath brothers, I think was a big one. It depends on if you’re looking at marketing, or if you’re looking at pain and health, or just the way that you think, because that’s what the marketing is really kind of got me into to thinking about, how you think about things. Completely unrelated to everything we talked about, there’s a book called How Emotions Are Made by Lisa Feldman Barrett, that is really about how our experiences are constructed. And that kind of pulls together a lot of stuff that I learned from the science of pain, and pulls together some of the marketing principles. There, was another good one this particular year, again, kind of relating to information and behavioral change and much more relevant to the political situation. That was called Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me, which is, again, there’s a couple psychologists involved with that. Aronson, who’s a big, pretty well known guy. It talks about cognitive dissonance theory, which again, is kind of related to marketing principles again, and tells you why we have such a polarized society. And, some of the, you know, the dangers and opportunities there, which are kind of frightening. So I would probably start there if you’re going to start with anything if you’re if you’re new on the physician journey, and you’re kind of wondering why, like, if we know lifestyle, and this lifestyle and behavioral changes necessary, we’re spending 90% of healthcare dollars on the treatment of lifestyle and behavioral disease, ie chronic diseases, and why what we do doesn’t work. I would start with the Heath brothers book, The Switch. Because that kind of gives you an introduction of really, this whole idea of handing out the pamphlet, and then complaining that your patients are non compliant is completely ridiculous. We’re not doing what we need to be doing.

So do you, in your own practice, do you use some of these strategies?

All the time. I incorporate, change theory and marketing principles in my presentations. If I’m doing a CME event, I will build them like I do a sales presentation, because it’s the same thing, right? Because, we’ve all been in a boring, super boring CME lecture and the person’s like blabbing out data or whatever, and it doesn’t serve anybody. But if you’re like, okay, what am I gonna do with this audience? If I want to change their behavior, I want to increase the level of awareness in them. How am I going to structure my presentation in a way to do that? So what’s my introduction going to be like? How am I going to take this concept and simplify it in a way that makes it interesting to them? So I use it all the time. I mean, everything that I do kind of defaults back into, how do we how do we influence people? How do we persuade them? How do we get people to change? What’s the best way that I can communicate? And then learning that foundation from direct response marketing, then it kind of flows through you and everything. You’re talking to people live you do it, the way you write an email, it happens, if you’re doing not even a sales presentation, any sort of presentation it’s reflected in that. Yeah, so I use it all. It’s, it’s fundamentally changed my life and how I see the world and it’s fun. It’s like the matrix, right? You step into it, and it’s a whole different world, you can never go back. But I’m glad to be there. And luckily, we’re not stuck in a weird submarine thing, shaved heads and eaten nasty mush like they were on The Matrix. It’s actually better.

I thought that was just Oregon. Okay. But yeah, as you mentioned, with that, you go down that rabbit hole. Because not only has been it for hundreds of years, you know, it’s like within the Spider Man movie. With great power comes great responsibility. When we see things where they take them to the nth degree, you realize, those same techniques are used to form cults. Right? And why, I was turning on HBO, and they have the documentary on the Halley’s comet, Heaven’s Gate. And it’s just like, how were they influenced? Well you watch some of these things you know, it’s the authority figure. It’s changing the behavior. That’s why when you look at this stuff, you realize how powerful it can be and especially if it gets into the wrong hands. That’s what can happen. But if you can utilize it and understand it, I think will make you a better physician.

I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think the best marketers who understand the responsibility behind that, like John Carlton I’m sure you know, is a writer. In his course I think lesson one is, I will not use these things for evil like literally. There’s a little page in there, I can’t remember if you’re supposed to sign it. But because it is, it’s a tool and you can use it in a really bad way or you can do it in a really good way. Rather than to duck, put our heads in the sand and say, I’m a physician I don’t have to learn this stuff blah blah blah blah blah. You better learn it. Because if you’re not learning it, then the unethical dude down the street, who you know is a hack, he’s learned I guarantee it or she. And is going to pull your patients away and do substantial harm. So learn as much about sales and marketing as you possibly can just so that, at a minimum, you can defend yourself and others from from the bad users and perhaps use it on the good side. Like I don’t know, the dark side and the good side of the force.

We could talk about this forever, I know you’ve got to go. Where can we go to get more information about yourself, podcasts, website? What’s the best way?

Well for your particular audience probably the best place to go is Thechangedphysician.com The Changed Physician that’s our podcast between me and and Melissa Katie. A little community there, we’re always looking for interesting guests who have wonderful stories and are you know transforming themselves and not settling. And so that’s probably the best place to go. If for whatever reason I sparked an interest in pain, you can go to straightshothealth.com and some of the work that I’ve done there is there. Or they can just email me Drkevin@straightshothealth.com is probably the easiest way.

Kevin, thank you so much. You’ve got a great brain for understanding all of this, putting things together, I love what you’re doing in the community. Just kudos to yourself and you know, all the best for you and have a have a wonderful holiday.

Dr. Kevin Cuccaro
Yeah, you too, Mike. And it’s always fun to talk with you. And I was just thinking as we’re finishing like, man, we need a physician podcast. Or some sort of secret group where we can talk about sales and marketing. How cool would that be?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
But thank you for having me on the show, it was a pleasure. You know, it’s always great to talk to you. I love what you’re doing, and have been doing it for so long. You’re like the godfather of physician-prenuers. So it’s absolute pleasure to be talking to you. But thanks for having me on the show.

Well, with the Godfather, right, I’ll make you an offer you can’t refuse. So thanks, everybody. Thanks again, Kevin. And as always, guys keep moving forward.

Filed Under: Articles, Entrepreneurship, Interviews Tagged With: kevin cuccaro, the changed physician

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Rank in the Top 10% of Your Specialty By Mastering This Skill with Dr. Melissa Cady

Why does LeBron James make more than the NBA journeyman who goes from team to team each year?  How does a 19 year old Youtube influencer make hundreds of thousands a year, while another 19 year old makes minimum wage?  It’s simple. They’ve increased the perceived value of their worth to the world. 

Pain specialist Dr. Melissa Cady wanted to reduce the amount of hours she worked, while maintaining the autonomy of her own practice.  As she details on this interview, she learned to design her career by honing her craft and marketing herself.  This attracted lucrative career opportunities, as she could provide a unique set of skills and expertise that you couldn’t find anywhere else. 

Just like the title of Cal Newport’s book, when you become “So Good They Can’t Ignore You”, people will seek out your expertise.  The more rare and valuable skill you can provide to the world, the more in control you are able to design the life you want.

If you feel you are not getting paid with what you are worth, this is an episode you won’t want to miss!

The Challenge Doctor – Melissa Cady, DO
https://www.challengedoctor.com/

Melissa Cady’s Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/challengedoctor/

The Changed Physician – Podcast to help you learn the mindsets, skills, & strategies to create the life you want. Cohosted with Dr. Kevin Cuccaro

https://www.thechangedphysician.com

RAW TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I love to spotlight physician entrepreneurs. And I’m seeing a trend with with many of us. And oftentimes we have an independent streak. We’re often someone who is kind of in a square peg in a round hole. And I think it might encapsulate I’m not sure, but it might encapsulate my next guests. Dr. Melissa Cady, also known as the challenge doctor is a Board Certified anesthesiologist, and pain management specialist. She’s the author of the book, Pandemic, a practical and holistic look at chronic pain, the medical system, and the anti pain lifestyle. She’s co host of the change physician podcast with Dr. Kevin Cucarro, who I recently had the opportunity to be interviewed with and we recently had him on a podcast. And the change position to podcasts you guys need to check out is where you can learn the mindset skills and strategies to create the life you want without selling out your morals or values. And I needed to have her on the program. So Dr. Cady, thank you for joining me on the bootstrap MD podcast.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Well, thanks for inviting me and thank you for all you’re doing to inspire and guide other physicians as well.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So I was able to interview your partner in crime or your co host

Dr. Melissa Cady
gic?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
That’s right. Yes, I know. I know you’re married, but you also got your podcast partner.

Dr. Melissa Cady
got my business? Yeah, married partner.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And when you interviewed me, I definitely getting to know each other, you kind of had an independent streak I could with the questions that you’re asking. And I just thought it was so unique. So I wanted to learn more about your background. And that’s why I wanted to have you on the program. But am I am I hearing that correctly? Or did you know since elementary school, you wanted to become a doctor.

Dr. Melissa Cady
First of all, that guess this, this whole round peg in a square hole or square peg in a round hole has eluded me, because I think I’ve always felt that sense of not quite fitting the traditional, or I’ve not been one to want to. You know, even for a lot of organizations, even in college, I felt like I didn’t want to conform in this way where it didn’t allow this ability to think and maybe look at things a little differently. And know I’ve never really wanted to be a physician since I was a child. There are a few positions in my family like my uncle’s. But I may have thought I’ve talked about being a veterinarian, but I think there was a lot of influence from maybe perception of what was a noble field, and what was something that would enable some stability of income. And I love to learn, I think that’s the one thing that I realized I love to learn. And I like to think differently. So I, because of that, I think that creates a sense of, I don’t want people to tell me what to do, or how to do when to do it. But the problem is you have to go within that infrastructure in order to create this opportunity to be a physician. So when you are on this treadmill, and I’ll just keep going and giving you some ideas, my perspective there. Please stop me if I go too far. Right? Yeah, so I feel like I’ve been on this treadmill where you just kind of hop on and do what you’re supposed to do in order to achieve. And I think I’ve had a sense of I think my pursuits have been directly related to a feeling of just feeling good about myself and filling voids, like the sense of accomplishing and, you know, is that part of trying to please others, whether it’s family or friends, probably to a certain extent, because I don’t think I really, really dove into that true personal development type of just that. That pursuit of personal development. I don’t think I was ready for it. In my teens, my 20s I mean, I was always learning but academics is a little different than like relationship learning and and life learning. And, and so I think it really took time for me to kind of grow into myself and realize some of these insights that maybe I felt but I can never put into words, because I don’t think I had the emotional intelligence to really appreciate that back back then. And you know, and it’s still a journey, I’m still evolving. But I think there’s this feeling that and it’s really created issues, and I think it might be relevant for people to hear is that I have had a problem, I’ve kind of gone against the grain in some ways in where I worked, because of the system that we work within. So just to give you an idea, I’ve worked in anesthesia for, oh, gosh, I finished my pain fellowship in 2009. And then I worked part time and had a seizure, because I had a hard time conforming to the traditional pain medicine practices, because it didn’t feel right, I’ve dealt with my own pain, I know there’s a lot more that goes into it from the patient perspective, there’s a lot you need to do a lot, you need to understand a lot of things you need to appreciate to really, really be on that journey of healing and, and less pain. And I call it the anti pain lifestyle, this is a general term of just, you’re never gonna have a pain free life, in order to really achieve and improve pain or improve a state of anxiety or stress you there’s, you’ve really got to learn to, you know, there’s these challenges you’re just going to have to deal with, and it takes a certain level, I’ve gone on a tangent, and I just want to, I’m not sure I’m going now. But in essence, all of all of these challenges and struggles, it requires a certain level of personal development to really improve. And so when I dealt with pain, when I dealt with, let me come back to my tangent here, when I dealt with pain, and I dealt with, you know, going into this medical profession, who is very much driven by, you know, this, this, unfortunately, money, and a lot of people are in it. for the right reasons, it’s just Unfortunately, the system is designed to give you more money for doing the things that probably you don’t need to be doing to patients. And maybe we need to do more education and helping people learn how to live healthier lives and deal with stress and deal with these challenges of stress, anxiety, pain, all these things that that we’re trying to fill a void or trying we’re struggling with. And it could be just the environment we were born into, or that we’ve chosen.

And the medical system is no different. So I’ve, you know, struggled and I know a lot of us, as physicians have gone through this medical system, realizing things should be better, and it’s stressful, it doesn’t enhance the wellness of physicians. And unfortunately, I feel like if we don’t take care of ourselves, and we don’t take care of each other, hence why the podcast came about. If we, if we don’t do these things, you know, for each other, then it’s hard to take care of patients. So it’s almost like victims take care of victims. And so the whole system, I think comes crumbling down and you look at the pandemic or some I’m kind of putting a date on this interview here. But and I never even obviously, I didn’t have a crystal ball to know that my pain demick trademark in my book would actually come to be a, you know, there’s actually a pandemic around the corner, you know, but those those things are are real, some of these challenges we have in our system. And so when you get into the system, and you’re working in it like I did with the anesthesia, and then you no longer when I first got out of my training, I was the kind of locums and I was part time. And then I decided to become employed. Which to me for me. And that’s not it’s not necessarily everybody. That was a big mistake, I think on my part. Because when you become employed from a financial standpoint is beneficial, got benefits and all this other stuff. But it could it can put kind of this constriction on me. And I know, I’ve, I’ve come to know myself and realize that I can’t have that kind of binding around me, like I need to feel the freedom, I need to feel the autonomy. And once you sign that contract, and you’re expected to do what you need to do, and you’re making salary, and yet your hours increase or you need to cover more call, you’re actually working less on when it comes to an hourly basis. So you give it up more time, in some cases, and sometimes it can work out great for people. But for me, I want the freedom. It doesn’t mean I work less. I think you probably can agree that sometimes when you’re independent, you find work as physicians, I’ll speak for my personality. Work is our sanity. Like in some ways, it’s create a structure for So many years and we were trained, and that we don’t know what else to fill our time with, other than more work, because that’s, that’s been our, we’ve been kind of like brainwashed in a way to be the kind of people that will take more work and do more work and do it for the good or, you know, the better of people, and just just for the good of society. And so and so I have a lot of biases, of course, I’m, I’m a female, I’m, you know, I’ve gone through the medical system, and all these things influenced me and how I perceive the world. But I see in my perspective is that when you are trained as a physician, you have to work really hard, you have to sacrifice a lot. We’re used to sacrificing our, our view is that we want to know things to help people, we feel this, we feel like we have to have the answers all the time. And sometimes part of being a great physician isn’t necessarily your answers. It’s being present, and being part of the journey with patients. And the way that we are that infrastructure and how we get paid is for, you know, doing things to people. And, you know, I’m reading a book right now by Vivek Murthy about together in isolation and loneliness and such a big part of our health and our wellness and, and I think it also applies to how our interactions are with patients. Now. We’re not and I’m not talking about emergency situations, but you know, these continuity of care type things, you know, we need to be present. So you know, I kind of went on multiple

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
rounds here was a great, we’re dead now.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Don’t You’re what? I’m missed it, what do you say?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
That’s, that’s all the time we have left now.

Dr. Melissa Cady
But there you go.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
It’s fascinating, because there’s so many, there’s so many directions that that we can take this conversation. But when did you feel that this way? I know, I know, I talked a little bit about it, you actually were a personal trainer, or a personal trainer. And then that would would kind of lead you into medicine? Correct.

Dr. Melissa Cady
So it’s, it’s kind of been It was kind of an evolution from them. I loved musculoskeletal medicine, I played sports, I had a fascination with the human body. It just kind of a natural inclination to be a personal trainer. But then I was feeling uncomfortable when I had patients that had like heart problems and, you know, back problems, and I just felt like I need to know more. And you know, it’s just like, you have so much energy, you know, in your 20s. And you just so driven many times, that’s where a biggest drive start. And so I felt like, why not? Let’s just try. And so I got into medical school and, and because of my love of Go ahead.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So you went into medical school. Again, the pain you’ve you’ve had sounds like you’ve had some pain, personal pain issues as well, which which led to that. When did this disillusionment of becoming an employed physician? Start? I know where it started. For me, it was pretty pretty in residency where I kind of learned but, you know, I thought that for about five years, what was it for yourself?

Dr. Melissa Cady
I think I just, you know, I was drinking the Kool Aid throughout the whole training thing. I think that year of pain fellowship. And this, this feeling that what I want to do for patients would not allow me to make the profits because the just the way that the incentives are, you know, put together. I felt like I felt this nauseating feeling like I couldn’t join a practice, I have to do it on my own, that I probably couldn’t afford the overhead in the way that I would spend time with patients, I would see half the number that my colleagues and my fellowship would see, and they were fine with it. But I was willing to take on some of the most, you know, challenging patients or just frustrating ones and, and I enjoyed it. But I think that’s when it first started. And then I just had the freedom and the income after that, at part time. And I literally started I think this is unusual, talking about the square peg in a round hole. Another really unusual thing about me is I, I decided this is the number I need to make per month in order to live. And as long as I make that amount, I’m fine. So I’d work two to three days a week right out of the gates. Because my perception is I can always work more, but I don’t want my state or my standard living to be so high that it’s stressful to come down if I need to. So I did have that around that time. And I literally told myself, I need to make 10,000 a month for me to be happy. That was kind of like mine. Number. And so and I still feel like that, you know,

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
and it’s so simple. And what I tell, you know, other physicians is okay, you you’ve done you graduated medical school, you know what your average salary is, and your hourly rate, you have an idea what that’s going to be. But so many doctors feel that they need to make meet the average, right? Because we all see this average amount of salaries, anesthesiologist, cardiologists, you know, pediatricians way below primary care a little bit about above that, we kind of need to know that the averages and they, you know, they come up with this every year, and you’re in the West in the south, we all know what kind of averages is. And for whatever reason, they feel that well, I need to meet that. Even if I’m working 50 plus hours, even if I’m doing three plus hours. But you can, you know, it comes down to just this independence is you went you went into locums and just like I can always get that back. I can always work more if I need to. I’m Why do you think more doctors don’t think similarly to that? Because I see so many that’s just trying to catch up? You know?

Dr. Melissa Cady
Yeah, I think there’s, I think obviously, like most things, and humankind is complex. But I think there’s, you know, first of all, there’s the golden handcuffs of I’ve got 100 to $300,000 in debt, they feel like they gotta get that paid off right now. I think sometimes it’s hard for us to realize, and you know that you’re not guaranteed tomorrow. And sometimes people overwork on the front end thinking they could just push and get this all done, make tons of money and retire early. There’s attitudes of, you know, they want something secure. So they get the J ob, which requires them work full time. And I don’t think that the medical system creates the options in a way that makes it normal to maybe not work full time. I think we’re also to blame us physicians, too, too. And I’ve been the subject of this, too, is that sometimes people look down on you for working part time as if you’re not putting as much effort in, you know, here’s the little light bulb that should be going on, oh, she’s making less money than me, you know, so that there’s a sacrifice that’s being made in a different way. And so I think as clinicians or physicians, we should, we should embrace and support people that want to design their life, I think we need to be better at designing our life versus just getting on the treadmill that we started on from the very first day of medical school. I think there’s a pre med for that matter. There’s just I think we’re so used to being followers. And I think you said that in one of our interviews, that many physicians don’t tend to be the typical leaders. Were there willing to construct or create the life they want? And granted, there might be people are perfectly happy with, you know, the jlb and the full time and there’s no question to them, and they’re happy. But you know, through some of our interviews on our podcast, it’s interesting to hear from, you know, one of the things Dr. Aaron Wiseman, and made a really good comment that sometimes, you know, for like men versus women and women are the ones unfortunately, we’re the only ones that can really like bear children if we’re gonna have children. So there’s a little different kind of stress there. But the system is really kind of been designed for for men, because that’s kind of what it started out that way. So, you know, it’s, it kind of depends, I guess what I’m getting to is it depends depends on your expectations. You know, what, if you’re going to be happy that or not? And to answer your question directly, why are people less likely to be more entrepreneurial? I guess? I think it’s just because we’re brainwashed to just be followers. And by the nature, we have to follow the rules, we have to pretend to be conservative and, and how we, you know, we don’t want to we’re worried about our reputation. You know, there’s everything we’re worried about, like it’s all about following the guidelines. And even if you look at what we have to answer these things, if we’ve had any medical psychiatric things, there’s, you know, there’s been a push by several physicians to work on that, too. Like, we’re shaming a lot of physicians in ways like, if you just had a bout of depression, you just lost your wife and you’ve been in depression for a year like, you don’t want to share that like you don’t even want to go get seen like we can’t even work on our own wellness because of the nature of the system. But I think a lot of people out there just i think that i think we’re just brainwashed into just being employees. And we’re not we’ve lost our autonomy.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, and to and this will probably get me in trouble. So I might read this later. I mean, I’ve worked with the medical board. I did some things with the medical board and We get this quarterly newsletter that gives us a list of all the adopters who did not follow. didn’t follow everything. And of course, there’s some definitely should be practicing medicine. But then you’ve got people who like, here’s a name because they didn’t turn in their, their license on time or you know, there had some tax issues, or maybe had a DUI, but it’s all listed, all listed here. And it just shows you like, okay, here, the doctors that aren’t following the system. Credit, many of them are reasons why they should be but it’s this public embarrassment.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Yes. shaming, again, the shaming

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
about that. So tell me about your your practice. Now I know you’re working part time, tell me how you kind of set it up and the other businesses that you run.

Dr. Melissa Cady
So right now I do part. So this is, it’s kind of it’s been kind of fun, to be honest. I left the group of an anesthesia group after about nine years, September of 2019, and then did locums. And then, of course, a few months with pandemic, I couldn’t do any elective cases that I thought I’d be starting in May or low earlier than that. So as of June, this year, I started working directly with two plastic surgeons that I worked with, when I was with the prayer group. They came to me directly and asked me to do their cases. This is, you know, plastic surgery, mainly elective, mainly cash based practice, seizure. So I’ve really embraced it. And the reason I think it kind of ties into things we’re talking about is having the autonomy to create the experience for patients that I feel like they deserve and should be in place. So this is take a little bit of time for me to create this. But essentially, I have the plastic surgery office will let me know, hey, we need to cover this case. Okay, I get the phone number. I text the patient. I said I’d love to do a pre op zoom online preoperative assessment with you. And talk about all your questions. Do that ahead of time, so it’s not done the day of surgery. So I send them that I send them a link, they can schedule themselves. I see them on that particular day for our preoperative chat, I call it an anesthesia chat. And then I after I talked to them, if they’re not insurance, which most of them aren’t, I get permission send to the email and invoice to prepay for their anesthesia experience, which is all inclusive whether the surgeon goes longer than the estimated time or not. And then I see on the day of and literally it’s a pop in for a minute or two, just say hey, do you have any questions since we chatted last time, make sure vital signs are good and hadn’t eaten and and then I give them IV Margarita and we go back to the operating room. And after that I ended up getting you know, I give them a card with a direct that same phone number I’ve texted from they have any questions about their anesthesia experience, they can directly contact me. And then after about a week later, I send them something in the mail. And I asked actually the text message I send Several days later, by the end of the week, see if there’s any issues, any questions, if they don’t, please fill out this survey. So I get feedback directly by text, which is document instead of just on the phone. So it’s actually they’re printed. And then they fill out a survey. That’s, you know, I put it up anonymous for testimonials later if I want to. And I specify that and then I sent him something in the mail a little gift tonight, I have this whole experience that is just unheard of. And I absolutely love doing that. And so I’m keeping track of all the you know, feedback and potentially even the surgeon thinks that we should present it at a conference. But it is by far the amount the amount of feedback and the kind of feedback I get back just goes to show you we’re not delivering on value. Not that everyone has to be happy. I don’t believe that every patient has to be happy because they are what makes them happy may not be good for their health. So you know that that’s different, but that is my part time practice right now with two plastic surgeons, that volume might change because one surgeon is going to be going off to do a separate location

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
and what compelled the physicians, the surgeons to reach out to you.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Um, I am very particular about not every anesthesia provider is the same. There’s a lot of great anesthesia providers, right. I just happen to be the kind of person that once more I want to dive in a little more details about them. I might spend a few more minutes on the pre op. They’ve heard me when I worked with the other group they’ve heard me and how I just from a professional standpoint and and consistency and wanting to know how they did afterwards. Like there’s there’s a lot of care and detail that is unique to me. But there’s a lot of people that care, and but the way that they do it is might be different. And he knows that I’m an entrepreneur, and that this would be something probably up my alley. And he felt like his patients do well, when I take care of them. So I don’t, that’s, that’s my guess. I mean, otherwise, he wouldn’t be coming to me.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I really think it hits the nail on the head, because we got so many physicians who are complaining about so much and mildly so declining reimbursements, I’m seeing my salaries going down. But when you’re able to be do really, really well, at whatever specialty you’re at, which you obviously do, they’re coming to you. Because I don’t know, you know that that movie, Liam Neeson from taken, you know, he has this particular set of skills, you’ve heard that phrase, right, because he’s using the best one. And that’s why he charges so much money, I’m a physician to a hired killer. But if you get my point, the way that you can increase your value is increased the amount of benefit that you can provide. And that’s why they come to you, you’re not going to them. And if you’re a physician that’s struggling right now, and you feel like you’re just a number. It’s because that’s how they treat, that’s how they perceive you. And we know that’s not true. But a part of being a physician. And I don’t know, if your book may be playing a role into it. But did that help you in terms of marketing yourself? We don’t like to think of ourselves as marketing ourselves. But But did that help do that get you noticed more than than other?

Dr. Melissa Cady
Well, these of course, he’s the one of the two surgeons that actually pursued me and in and even discussed in my prior group, like, I really, we really want her to do the cases. He knows that I wrote a book, he came to my book signing, he, I think he was quite, you know, he appreciates he understands what it’s like to he has his own practice. And he knows the struggles of building your own practice. Now, I had the benefit. And he talked about the salaries in the country, the sounds totally off topic, but not necessarily, but I don’t have to worry about an overhead. So like a surgeon, imagine a plastic surgeon, he has a huge overhead. And he has to manage staff. I don’t have to do that other than, you know, communicating with people in the surgery center that I work at, and I worked at before. For many years. It’s there’s something to say about I guess, once you’re kind of have that mindset, you kind of understand that this other person has that similar mindset, in the book, I think just created evidence that I have that tenacity and that and I still need to write the second edition, which I need to get that tenacity back. But yeah, it’s I think, I think it just added to this perception of my drive to create a better experience, and I’m very committed to educating I feel very, very strongly that people should be better informed. And I do recognize some people get super anxious to too much detail. And I try to monitor that and present it in a way that they can tolerate but there is a certain minimum I expect them to hear as an adult consenting to any type of elective procedure.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Again, you know, what’s interesting, too, is is you know, in my audience got a lot of entrepreneurs and doctors who are entrepreneurs as I jump in for them, as you know, they want to do that. But if you’re still passionate about medicine, which I can tell you, you sure are like myself, is just want to be the best at that. That just be the best and make yourself where they come to you. You don’t necessarily have to come to them because that’s when you can when you can you know, again money is not the end all but you write your own check, you can decide how you want to work right? Because that that really kind of improves your your standing I have a friend who has a weight loss doctor and his primary care we deal with weight loss for like a minute. Yeah, but he charges like five to 10 times higher than the average other doctors dealing with weight loss one he’s got a book he’s had a special on PBS. So he charges 1000s of dollars. I’m not saying that’s that’s not what you have to do to to charge that but it brands and better. Is he the best doctor dealing with weight loss, he would probably tell you not you know, you know, there’s some universal things about eating less moving more, but because the perception is he’s able to brand himself and he enjoys what he does. So even if so if you’re someone who said, You know, I don’t like doing this, but there may be there’s a part in medicine that you do, like, maybe you love to create podcasts, why not be the best podcaster that you can be. But it’s it helps those who are not ready to make that leap to becoming their own boss and say, Hey, I mean, it’s just the branding and marketing. And I know Kevin loves to talk about marketing, the call weight room for like, two hours. We couldn’t like get and that but but I love that you that you illustrated that point? And then looking back, it’s like, geez, you don’t have to kind of follow those average salaries. You know, that’s why NBA players, why did they get make millions of dollars? multi millions of dollars, right? Because the best of what, at that particular skill? Yeah. But yeah, thank you for illustrating. And just showing evidence that that is true. We met so you have that in one or the other, your businesses that you work on? Sure.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Well, I’m in a stopping kind of in a pause on my my pain out loud website is still still there, I’ve got an app associated with it actually is a small New Zealand company that was a startup at the time that helped kind of bridge an app with my website. So I have a lot of interviews with pain professionals and people live and I call them pain, challengers and pain professionals and just gives their stories. And so they’re video interviews that are on the website and can be seen in the app as well. At least for now. I’m just debating whether or not to continue the app based on utilization. And I’ve found that it’s the one thing about pain, it’s people don’t necessarily think they need an education on it. Because they experienced it, and they think they know it and understand it. And as Dr. Caro Caro, who wasn’t interventional pain physician in the past, who’s now third, he considers himself a pain specialist. We both stopped doing interventions for pain, because they’re really not necessary most of the time, and nearly most of the time they are not. And so we’ve we have a very strong belief there. So my my venture into that was several years ago was starting to just share stories to help people realize there’s better ways of understanding pain and dealing with it and to minimize injections, medications and surgeries. Not to say I’m completely anti against those, but people need to have the basis of understanding before they choose to take on a risk that may not be necessary. And so I think going in eyes wide open was my my goal. And the tagline was healing stories matter. And so sometimes people need proof that there are other ways of doing it versus learning the hard way, which is what most people in the society in the United States that are pursuing pain interventions are doing. They’re just like, let’s try this and this and just, you know, possible complications and learning the hard way. So that’s one of my ventures that I’m trying to decide how I want to take that or if I’m going to consider it more of an archived effort, definitely not going to get rid of all the interviews, I think they’re helpful. But sometimes we need to curate the information in a way that’s very guided, and so that that’s something that I you know, might develop over time. Of course, a podcast is something that there’s been a lot of fun for, you know, Kevin and I to do, because we just had this joint vision of doing something it was meaningful. And of course, a lot of fun interviewing people to hear their stories. He didn’t

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
remove the background of his fireplace, though.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Yes, he needs a different background. It’s it’s all zoom background. So it’s not really like a true fireplace. Yeah, I need to pick something different. I just talked about that. Yeah. What’s up?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
You didn’t hear from me?

Dr. Melissa Cady
Oh, no. Well, I, I need to bring it up. So I like giving them a hard time, you know? And let’s see what else what else do I have, there’s, there’s something I can’t really talk about right now, that’s kind of a startup that I might be involved in. But it will be more on a telemedicine type of venture where I can use some of my pain background in my position standing to help people. And this can be a position that I could potentially, I could work, I love to go to Australia, New Zealand quite frequently. So. So if I’m off site here, then I could enjoy, you know, still be making some income doing that. But, you know, some of my other little entrepreneurial things are real estate and, you know, working on a couple other book ideas, but those are kind of

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
fun, but that you’re having fun doing it.

Dr. Melissa Cady
That’s right. Yeah, I think the this is the thing that I think makes a lot of people happy. It’s not just me, but having the opportunity for creativity, with autonomy, and not doing too much of the stuff you love, like in the medical field where it has its own stressors because I need a break from that as much I love it. I don’t want to do it full time. So I want the flexibility, the autonomy, the creativity, to design the life that suits me. And so for everyone else, that’s different. I don’t have children. So you know, some people, they need to surround themselves with their children that will take up their time to solve a cat,

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
you got a cat,

Dr. Melissa Cady
I have a cat into rabbits, into rabbits. Yes, they’re all rescues. So if you’re curious out there, don’t ask. But they’re low maintenance, put it that way.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
But what what’s great is just just like, if I had one dead client of mine, he said, you know, Mike, you get these opportunities, you know, and I can’t get the same opportunities, because, you know, you’re out there a bit. And anybody can can get these opportunities. Anybody? Can we would you agree, you just have to have your eyes open your door and be willing to put yourself out there, which be honest, you know, as someone who’s introverted, it’s difficult to do this, you know, sometimes, but I think the benefits outweighs the rewards. Because, I mean, do you agree in general, that there are opportunities

Dr. Melissa Cady
out there? Sure. Well, that’s, that’s the mentality. I think this this applies to many areas in life. And, and sometimes you can’t just find it, you have to create an experience that either someone else has put out there for you to go experience, or you create your own, like podcast experience, and which forces you to connect. And when you start connecting, it’s those connections that open your eyes and your ears to opportunities you would never even thought of because you’re we’re in your little world. That is, I would say just brainwashed, but they have a certain mentality of what if you’re focused on just surviving, and you’re stressed out, and you’re not getting enough sleep, and you feel isolated, despite being around tons of people who are burned out as well and just want to go home, and may affect the quality of patient care. I mean, you can go on tangents on all this and how it has these multiple effects. But yes, I think that you have to, there is without a doubt, if I had not put myself out there with. And sometimes it’s about thinking about what’s if you think about trying to help somebody else, whether it’s a society or its individual, if you just start going out there and trying to do something good for people, people will notice people acknowledge it, they’ll appreciate it, they might connect you with somebody else, then they start recognizing your value, and then they share you with somebody else. And that’s like the ultimate marketing is that people, they might have an impression about you that might not be completely accurate. But if you don’t put out your value, or you don’t put out the good things you want to do in this world, then people won’t be able to see it, and won’t be able to share it. And so I think, you know, you just kind of had this, you just brought up some ideas, I really haven’t even said in words, but you have to you have to engage in an experience with people. So whether it’s somebody else has created it, or something you’re deciding you want to do, because it just sounds cool. You want to try it, or you want to learn, you know, the paradox podcast, he doesn’t because he wanted to learn more about some topic. And so you just put it out there for the world to hear too. So find something that helps other people maybe selfishly helps you to. And it’s amazing how you can start connecting with people and opportunities. Many times the opportunities are all around us. Or we’re not engaged with the right people in order to see them. And I don’t mean to social media and stuff because they’re gonna start targeting you with certain stuff and, but really engage with real relationships with people. And it’s, it’s kind of cool to, you know, connect with people you didn’t think you’d Connect so quickly with or maybe learn something from them. I mean, that’s how wealthy people I mean, you have to have your networks of people.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right, right. Right. And, I mean, it sounds woowoo. And I know you’re from Austin, and that no, yeah. I love you. But but it is, you know, I’ve always been the belief you just put something out there out into the universe, whatever you want to call it. Something always comes in. And I think the other thing that you mentioned, too, is that drive is a curiosity factor. No, you can’t fake that. No, you mean you. I do it because I just like to hear interesting perspectives. That’s how we learn. And as you mentioned, you’re not at your journey. We’re just still kind of riding along. We don’t have all of the answers. We don’t know what’s going to happen. I mean, if you told me that You know, the country was going to shut down for, you know, all of 2020 you know, saying, you know, what are you smoking there. But it happens and it’s just the way we’re able to connect. And you know, we all have a love hate relationship with social media, we know the trolls and the bad things that can happen and that but there’s also opportunities to meet people we’ve never met face to face, but we can have these conversations over these zooms. It’s not 100% replaceable, but it’s allowed us to bring us closer together and in some weird fashion, but there’s so much great stuff, we’re gonna need to have you come back I love the way that you that the way that you think and see these things. where can our audience go to learn more about what you do? Just give some links that you can you want to share with us today? Sure.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Sure. I I think the easiest thing is just going to challenge doctor.com you can put my name and Melissa Cady, calm but everyone misspells it. So it’s better to

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
have a golf. Assisting a golfer? You’re not a caddy?

Dr. Melissa Cady
I’m not a golf caddy. Yes, Cady, like Lady but with the see. Sounds like a first name. But yeah, go to challenge doctor.com I’m, you know, Instagram, I’m trying to get a little bit busier on that course, I got a couple Instagram pages because I got the podcast, and I manage all my own stuff. And at some point down the road, I might have someone else do it. But I’m kind of that control freak.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
thing about being a father is I get it. Okay.

Dr. Melissa Cady
Very nice. Very nice. Yeah, feel free to you know, follow me challenge doctors pretty much my hashtag on any of social media. That’s wonderful.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
It was wonderful. You just, I love how you put things into into perspective. And just kind of the way you think. And for those listening, I hope you were inspired as much as I do every time I hear her talk. And as always guys keep moving forward.

Filed Under: Articles, Entrepreneurship, Interviews Tagged With: dr melissa cady, the changed physician

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The 100th Podcast Episode

Can’t believe we made it to 100 episodes!  On this jam-packed double-sized show, we invited some of your favorite BootstrapMD past guests to share tips, strategies, and predictions for the upcoming year.

RAW TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Can you believe it? We’ve hit 100 episodes. It has been an amazing ride over these last few years, have had the opportunity to talk with such incredible guests, some of which I’ve asked to join me on this program. Join me on this celebration. And I’ve asked them to give me not only what they’re currently doing but a tip, some strategies, maybe a prediction or to bet the upcoming year to help you the physician entrepreneur.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Hey guys, it’s Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to this special episode of BootstrapMD and D BootstrapMD. md is the podcast for physician entrepreneurs. If this is your first time listening, welcome, if you’ve been a longtime follower to the program, welcome back. As I mentioned, bootstrap MD podcast when you started it, it was to talk about the issues that could affect a physician and healthcare entrepreneurs. If you’ve never heard about me, my name is Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. I’m a primary care physician. It’s going on 17 years ago, I left corporate medicine where it was incredibly burnt out and disillusioned. I started up my own business. Basically from the laptop from my bedroom was able to take it to seven figures and later sell that I was able then to parlay my entrepreneurial experience I currently I owned a number of different businesses, most of which are multiple medical clinics, as well as I own a consulting company called bootstrap MD, where I help other physician entrepreneurs help them chase their dreams. I talked about my story, in this book, the physician physician if you want to learn more plug out of the way. But over the last two years, I realized that that was just my journey. And they wanted to highlight other physician entrepreneurs who were out there and talk about their journeys and how they got there. When I first started working with other doctors, in terms of business, and I wanted to voice to them that that is an option that they can do. And when they would go to medical conferences to talk about these subjects. I literally had the door slammed in my face, because at least from my experience, they just wanted doctors to read more prescriptions and not talk about ways that they could become their own boss. So that’s one of the reasons I started BootstrapMD md. So since we started this podcast over two years ago, we’ve had some just amazing guests throughout the years. And I wish I could highlight everybody. But on this program. I just wanted to highlight especially those that we haven’t heard from in a while. But I realized it was important for me to highlight other physicians journeys, because for those who are considering going into entrepreneurship, it’s great to have real life examples of just success stories that I can highlight and share to the world. So I encourage you to look at past episodes, where you can hear from physicians who’ve started their own online business selling online courses or through Amazon, those who’ve done incredibly well through real estate. And many of those who started their own consulting and coaching businesses, go ahead and check those out. encourage you to subscribe to this podcast so you don’t miss any single one. But let’s start off with my first guest. We first met her all the way back in episode number two. And what was interesting is we found out that we actually went to the same residency. So back when I interviewed this doctor, way back in episode number two, she had talked about quitting medicine and is now completely out of it. So let’s Find out what she is currently doing. Let’s hear from Dr. Lynn Marie Morski.

Dr. Lynn Marie Morski
Dr. Lynn Marie Morski here. I wanted to congratulate Mike Woo-Ming on the 100th episode of his podcast video extravaganza, bootstrap, MD. I was on episode number two, I think he said I was first interviewed, very honored. Mike, thank you so much great to see all the people that you’ve helped. Since you started the podcast, he has asked us to give you a little update. I am not at all doing what I was doing back when he recorded our episode. I am currently both the medical director of a website called way of life calm, and also more relevantly for this crowd. I am president of the psychedelic medicine Association. So Mike has asked me to give you predictions for 2021. And I would say my biggest prediction is that mental health will be taken over by psychedelic medicines. There are a lot of psychedelic medicines that are in phase two and phase three trials with the FDA starting in phase one, I think they’re going to really revolutionize both mental and therefore physical health. In fact, there are some psychedelics that are currently being investigated strictly for physical health conditions. Although we mostly know at this point, nothing is just physical. But if you are looking toward the future, as a physician entrepreneur, I would take a look at psychedelic medicines, because that’s absolutely the next wave of things because there’s proving to be much more efficacious than what we have now. So also, if you are a practitioner, and you want to know more, head over to the psychedelic medicine Association, which can be found at psychedelic medicine, association.org. I hope you all have a fantastic 2021.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Hi, thanks, Lynn Marie. Now, I first met this doctor, when he had put a post on a Facebook group on how he was interested in finding other doctors who were interested in passive income, which was just music to my ears. And I went to his little meetup in Los Angeles when you could still do that, and got to meet him as well as other doctors who had the same line of thinking that I had. He’s now since gone to even more incredible things, even launching the biggest virtual summit for physicians in this space. It was called the leverage and growth summit, we had over 10,000 doctors join, you know him as the passive income MD, Dr. Peter Kim.

And now we got Peter Kim, on the call, Peter, thanks that we’re celebrating the 100th episode. It’s been a while since we’ve been chatting and you know, everything has been kind of blown up. Last week, we talked, I think we didn’t even have this. At least last time, I interviewed you what’s been going on with you all.

Dr. Peter Kim
Thanks so much. I want to start by saying thanks for having me as part of this. I think being part of bootstrap MD being on the podcast, it’s been a big part of my journey as well. So thanks for having me, it’s been a lot has happened. I mean, I feel like we’ve talked a bunch since then. But since that time in 2019, I think is the last time we’ve talked, I have really kind of really focused on trying to get the message out about real estate investing and entrepreneurship to as many physicians as possible. A lot of that has happened through a lot of these virtual conferences that I’ve run. One’s called the leverage and growth summit. And the other one’s called financial freedom through real estate. And both of those conferences, they are, you know, 1000s 1000s of physicians, over 10,000 physicians who were first one in 1000. Other one, so we just try to get as many people like on this mission, at least understand that there are so many different options for doctors, when it comes to creating income. And my I totally believe that if you’re able to do that, create other sources of income, it allows you to really practice medicine on your own terms. You know, whether that’s working full time, whether it’s working part time, whether it’s actually, you know, leaving medicine, if that’s the case, but whatever it is, you get to do it on your own terms. And so you know, you’re making that decision, and hopefully that makes you a happier doctor, happier person, happy, happier husband, wife, whatever that might be.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So any projects or anything you want to share coming up for you and your company for 2021.

Dr. Peter Kim
Yeah, we’re just working on these virtual conferences and making them even better than they were before last year was an experiment and a lot of them are most our upcoming conference, the leverage and growth summit. This is our second annual one. It’s hopefully bigger and better this year, it will happen in March. And we’re hoping to even increase on top of the number of people that were there before again, just get it to as many people as possible.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So you think virtual summit virtual summit. I mean, we were almost forced to write I mean, we Yeah, physical conferences. I know I’ve been physical and everything is going virtual. Do you think we’re going to go back to the physical or do you think virtual conferences is where you want to go in the future?

Dr. Peter Kim
I mean, Well, I’ll tell I’ll tell you I miss it. I miss the physical like in person conferences. I will tell you in 2019 I went to on average one little bit over one conference a month in person at least. So I went to a lot and I If you’re a conference junkie, whatever is, but I love the interaction, because I think so much, there’s the I get so much value out of just talking to people and connecting. And sometimes in networking, you get more out of it in a conversation that you did, even at the entire conference or even reading something in a book. So I find so much value out of it. I love I tried to recreate that in a virtual format, it doesn’t quite work the same. At the same time, what the virtual conference does and allows you to do is reach so many more people that wouldn’t be able to kind of leave their home, leave their families to spend that time and energy to come and see you and or see whatever you put on. And so I don’t think it’s going to, I mean, it’s not going anywhere, I promise you virtual summits and conferences now that we’ve created them. And the sheer numbers of people that have been attending these type of things, and people are getting used to them. I don’t think they’re going anywhere, they’re only going to continue to grow and the production level is increasing on these. So I have to step up my game. But I think people get a ton of value out of it, I think there’s gonna be always some tweaking as to how can make it best how to recreate some of this in person type stuff. But if people are interested in getting in on this, by no means is like the market saturated, just go out there and build one and create one.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, and I know how hard you and your team may be working behind the scenes, I can’t even imagine what the next one is going to be like. So I’ve been asking the guests, these returning guests to come in my podcast guests, if they could share any wisdom, a tip or prediction that you have for 2021.

Dr. Peter Kim
Okay, I’m gonna come up with one. I think that well, I’m in the world of physician finance, when it comes to knowledge based business and physician finance, and a lot of people have told me all right, has that been saturated, has that been kept. But with everything that’s happened with COVID in the last year, with physicians, feeling job insecurity, with feeling health insecurity, with all the uncertainty around medicine, and things like that, I believe that finding alternative income streams, being smarter with your investments, finding, you know, passive income, real estate investing, these things are only going to become bigger for physicians in 2021. And I think that the number of people doing courses on it, doing conferences on it, trying to learn and go on websites about it, people launching these businesses, I think will only become bigger in 2021. And if again, if that’s something people are interested in it, I think this is a massive and great time to to jump in.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I love that feeling of abundance. And when you launch to the leverage and growth conference that was already a part of I mean, you broke that kind of milestone in terms of amount of physicians, for this, whatever you call this thing that we do physician finances, as you called it, 10,000 physicians, and that’s a lot of doctors out there. But then how many doctors are in the you know, the US alone, like they’re in a a million. So that’s still 990,000 other doctors that are still out there to reach? And you know, I’ve always been beating it from a drum this financial position finance needs to be a required course in medical school. I’m sure you agree, correct?

Dr. Peter Kim
Oh, absolutely. I think that people who get exposed to it early on, it actually increases. I think, first of all career, longevity, sustainability. And they’re happier physicians, in my opinion, because a lot of the physicians that I’m seeing that are learning early, they get their figured out how to handle their debt. Well, they figured out how to do all make wise investments early on, and then they’re not they don’t feel so trapped within the system. And so it’s a big thing.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, Peter, I know you’ve been busy, and they’ve got things behind the scenes. So thank you again, and you know, have a prosperous 2021.

Dr. Peter Kim
Well, congratulations on your 100th episode. Thank you for letting me be part of it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thanks again to Dr. Peter Kim, if you want to hear more about his story, I interviewed him way back in Episode Number 30, where he learned as a busy anesthesiologist who needed to stop substituting time for money, get involved more in his real estate investments where he is now financially free. Now, if you’re someone who say, I’m just too busy, as a doctor to start a business, then you definitely need to listen to my next guest that we had interviewed way back in Episode Number 38. He started his first successful business as a resident. He’s probably one of the most prodigious physician entrepreneurs I know. Let’s talk to Dr. Christopher Loo. All right, we’ve got Dr. Christopher Loo. Chris, you’re one of our more popular guests that was on the program. We’re celebrating our 100th episode. So thanks for stopping by for a few minutes. What have you been up to my friend?

Dr. Christopher Loo
congratulations on the 100th episode, I believe appeared on your podcast a little bit over a year ago and like we all know last year was a quite a pivotal, pivotal.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Not much has changed since then.

Dr. Christopher Loo
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no. 2020 was hard for some but if you’re an entrepreneur, like You and your audience. Um, it was a year of quick pivots and just massive opportunities, a lot of opportunities in the equity markets, and just capitalizing on virtual meetings, seminars and moving everything to virtual environment. So I just got recently finished with a digital health consulting project in Seattle back in October, then took a month off. And I just just finished up a successful December workshop on helping clients learn how to successfully invest in short term rentals. Yeah, and my whole webinar workshop boot camp series started actually, in March of the pandemic, when everybody was freaking out and reaching out that there was a lot of turmoil. So I started this series to really, really help a broader audience and able to leverage technology and scale and Hello, more people make a greater impact. So that’s been my predominant focus. I’ve been really growing my social media following on Instagram, I got named as one of the top 50 doctors a follow on Instagram by board vitals. Um, yeah, it’s been, it’s been really good. I think last year, really leveraging social media and leveraging digital platforms, digital technology, virtual environments, really helped and saved a lot of businesses and help saved a lot of entrepreneurs. So, and it’s really interesting, because you see a lot of business models, especially in so many different sectors evolving because of this some whole pandemic. So I think what’s interesting is that, for example, back in 2008, when the whole crisis came, you know, a lot of companies including doordash, Airbnb, Uber, Lyft, they came in now they’re all IPOs. So even in this, from this year, you’re gonna see a lot of new innovative companies who eventually go public in the next, you know, eight to 10 years.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, keep an eye on it. It’s funny, Chris, tonight, we have these, this weird thing over the last year, we have these one word tax. Like during the pandemic is really where I got into stock trading, because I knew that a lot of the stocks were going to drop, which they did, and just buy it at bargain bargain basement prices. And I remember we were talking and he said, You need to invest in Tesla, and now it’s over. And then he’ll like, say, Tesla, exclamation point. And then because it went high, and then I would respond, okay, I’ll buy a few. And then it drops, you know? And then I would go Tesla. It’s gone crazy. So I want to, I want to thank you for that. But yeah, that was the thing that for me, during the pandemic, is I really got into the stock trading and really learned about options trading. So it’s been a fun roller coaster ride, but thank you for for sharing that. So what do you have? Because I know you’re always kind of on the cutting edge, you know, what’s going on in social media? It sounds like you have your ear to like, what what’s going on, especially with physicians and entrepreneurship? What advice or tips or prediction you have for this year?

Dr. Christopher Loo
Um, well, I think I think 2021 is going to be really, you’re going to see really exponential changes from 2020. And so like I said, you’re going to see, for example, I think virtual reality is going to be really big. So I started, yeah, I actually got a Oculus quest to, for Christmas, just to learn about the technology and learn how to leverage that. And I think, you know, I recently added a virtual reality life series, in addition to my weekly webinars, so I think I think you’ll see a virtual reality come into play. Artificial Intelligence continues to make gains. And so I think, you know, there was recently in California, there was a rollout of autonomous delivery of vehicles, semi small vehicles that deliver food to college campuses. So I think, I think autonomous vehicles are going to be you know, you’ll start to see that and another kind of controversial area for physicians is the blockchain. So I wrote recently wrote a Kevin MD article talking about blockchain and how it relates to digital currencies and what it really means for the future of healthcare. So 2021 you’re gonna see a lot of action in digital currencies. I don’t, you know, again, buyer beware because it’s a lot of speculation and hype. So it’s not really, you know, as sound or solid investment, but it’s something to worth learning about and understanding and getting familiar with because I’m digital currencies are among the first applications of the blockchain. But the blockchain has so many other different applications that really we really haven’t explored. And especially in healthcare, for example, supply chain management, privacy, security. There’s a whole host of applications. So I think blockchain will continue to, to be in the forefront.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah. And unfortunately, as you know, in medicine, it’s we’re still antiquated. We’re always seem to behind the times. But yeah, you know, I love I love what you’re thinking, where can they go to find out more and follow your writing and your teachings

Dr. Christopher Loo
will have a link tree link. So it’s www.linktree.com. And it’s Dr. Chris Lu, MD, PhD. And I’ll send you the link. And then I’m also you follow me on Instagram, Dr. Chris Lu, MD, PhD on mad at almost 2500 followers now. My YouTube channels growing, you know, over 100, videos, Twitter, Dr. Christopher, MD, PhD, and you can always email me as well. So like I said, I’ve really leveraged social media and technology, and it’s really helped me leverage and expand my reach to my

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, so. So for you guys are listening and you want to, you know, I always think you can learn best from other examples, Chris is someone that you definitely want to follow. If you want to increase your social media presence. Chris, always great talking to you. Thanks again. And we’ll see you soon.

Dr. Christopher Loo
Thanks, Mike. See you next time.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thanks, Chris. Now, I would be remiss if I didn’t have my next guest on he was really the doctor who encouraged me to do a weekly podcast, because I can pretty much guarantee that the 100th episode would have been celebrated may 2027. And not this year, just encouraged me to do a weekly podcast. And every Saturday, an episode goes out. He’s also helped me in numerous ways, and probably the nicest doctors that I’ve ever met dr. john Eureka.

Dr. John Jurica
Hey, Mike, Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Congratulations, I hear you’ve got 100 podcast episodes completed. That’s crazy. I can’t believe it. You’re catching up with me. I’m still doing my podcast I’m hitting about Episode 177 today. But man, it’s great to hear that you’ve made 100 episodes. And I want to congratulate you. And I tell you that I love your podcast, yours, as I’ve told you before, is the first one that I listened to each week, because I think it’s practical. It’s fun, it’s inspirational. And you really get to the core issues about starting your own business. So again, I’m very happy to say congratulations. Now what have I been up to? You know, I was on your podcast and episode number 25. That was over a year ago. And then I came on again with Tom Davis and Episode Number 68 to talk about the clinicians career cooperative. So that is still going that is not in sight form where mentors like you and a dozen or so others interact with members to teach them about unconventional non traditional careers, non clinical careers and so forth. So we just relaunched that. So people are interested, they should check it out at clinicians, cooperative.com. What else am I up to? I started the non clinical Career Academy, I think, since my first episode with you. So that’s where I teach online courses about non clinical careers. And actually, it does feature one with you, where you and I are talking about your book, and some of the things that you were teaching in the book. So no, that’s cool. What else? You know, I’ve learned something in this past year, which I didn’t know when I was talking to you on episode 28. And subsequently at your conference, because we were talking about lead generation and growing an email list and so forth. And I realized after that then another great way to grow your list is to do webinars. Now I learned this from john Lee Dumas of Entrepreneur on Fire. He has a whole series of webinars that he does, it kind of feeds into these funnels. But for the most part, what I’ve tried to do now is every month are to hold a webinar where I’m teaching potential students and I’ve got it set up that it to join, they have to join my email list as well. And I just teach them something for 30 or 45 minutes and I build my email list and they get something out of it. And then I can send them more information about things I’m doing. So that’s a bit of advice. I have a business advice from the standpoint of, of what you might try. If you’re in that early phase of building your business. Definitely do regular webinars that can be automated after the first few times that you do and that’s what I’m planning to do next. So that’s a recent thing I’ve learned. I hope it’s helpful. And again, Mike, I want I congratulate you on 100 awesome episodes, and keep up the good work. And hopefully we’ll get back together again, real soon. All right. Bye, Mike.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thank you, john. And I definitely encourage you to check out his podcast as well. He’s got some amazing guests on. And it really is essential learning if you’re a doctor looking for non clinical opportunities. Now, as I mentioned, at the top of my program, I felt almost like a lone wolf talking about physician entrepreneurship to other physicians. And it was difficult to even talk about other ways that you can generate revenue as an employed physician. But I wasn’t completely alone. There were some pioneers that were out there, and talking about non clinical opportunities, non clinical jobs, and one of them is one of my next guests, who I’ve gotten to know finally got to know for the last couple years, I’ve had the honor of being part of her conferences, and she’s probably one of the most influential doctors out there in the space. Let’s talk to Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley. All right, Michelle, it’s great to see you again. I know a lot of my audience they love when they have you on. I just want to know what’s going on any new projects you want to share with us what’s going on with your life right now?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
Well, thanks so much for having me. Again, Mike. It’s always fun to talk with you. And I love your audience. I always have stuff going on. So let’s, let’s see. So we finished up the 2020 conferences, of course, they were virtual because of COVID. But it was really a great thing, because it really gave a new life to the conference and helps it to be more accessible to people because we went online. And so 2021 will also be a virtual year for the physicians helping physicians conference. And we got CME approved this year.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Wow! That’s not only looking into it, that can not only be time consuming, but you know, it can be expensive as well.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
Yeah, but worth it. Because it’s really, it’s hard to get that CME and it’s a great way to also just use some of that money and actually get to be part of a conference that you might already want to be part of. So you maybe they’ll pay for it, maybe they’ll give you some time off. It’s just

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
opened up some more, you know, opportunities for people who were thinking about it, but you know, it’s often hard to, to pay out of pocket. And for many of us doctors, we’ve got that CME allowance somewhere in there. So and I’ve always been an advocate is like this needs to be in terms of medical education, this is probably the best bang for the buck that you get by coming to one your conferences.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
Awesome. Thanks, thanks. Well, it’s gonna be the biggest yet. So we’re really excited all brand new speakers this year. Of course, we’ll have some old speakers back in maybe next year. And so everyone that loves hearing you speak, which are a lot of people will get to hear you again in the future does not in March. So we’ve got that going on. And then I also do non clinical work. In addition to running the conference and doing some coaching, I do consulting work, I’ve been on faculty at university, been an entrepreneur in residence and just recently, I signed a contract to start a new MSL job. So I will be working as a medical science liaison in a contract role for the next year as well. So that’ll be fun. And I’ll get to talk about all my experiences and I’m really looking forward to it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, it’s interesting to is at least the last few conference I’ve been to in two you’ve always had someone talking about MSL, so I guess you really walk in the walk so to speak, right?

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
Absolutely. Well, I sort of feel like in order to provide the best information and advice, you really have to stay up on what a non clinical job and career is. And I mean, those are the people that give the best advice, the ones that are there, right, they’re doing it so you know, practicing the interview skills, keeping those sharp, making sure you’re staying on top of the trends with resumes and LinkedIn and networking. And, and for me, I just I love the work itself. So yeah, this is just another way for me to be in that non clinical world as a doctor and but still getting to serve in the way that I love to do which is helping others with their careers to the conference.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, we’ll definitely need to have you back after now maybe a few months or a year after you do get so you could give us give us the scoop. So I’ve been asking all of my guests that I’ve been having on the special 100th episode about Any tips or words of advice, or maybe a prediction about 2021? For my audience, physician entrepreneurs? Great.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
Yeah. You know, when I think about the new year, it’s always a time for reflection for me. And I think other entrepreneurs feel that way too. And non entrepreneurs as well, it’s, it’s a time for people to turn over a new leaf to look ahead, to leave behind maybe some of the things that weren’t so good and run towards, you know, the hopes and the dreams that we all have of the new year. And I’m no different. I definitely think that way. But But this year, as I was reflecting of 2020, and what a tough year, it’s been looking at 2021. And all of us are really hanging our hopes on 2021 in the vaccine, and just ending this pandemic. I really started thinking, though, that being so I’m being so caught up in just thinking that 2021 is going to be it’s going to be the best year, it’s going to be so much better. Now. While I hope it will be. And while I don’t think you should be negative about it, it’s also going to inevitably bring some things that are not so good. And some frustrations. And I feel like when you hang all of your hopes on this next year, and and you just put all those eggs in that basket, it’s very easy to get frustrated and and upset and paralyzed with decisions. And you know, all of these things that cause us to just not have such a good year, when things inevitably go wrong. So I think for your audience, if you’re looking at the year, and you know, it’s good to look at it with a lot of that hope, but also know that, you know, it’s going to bring ups and downs, goods and Bad’s and just going ahead and not letting those things stop you just moving ahead no matter what even if the pandemic still keeps going for a little while, even if something else happens, where we’re all like, oh, what are we gonna do? You know, you just got to keep moving forward. And I know, that’s what you do, Mike, I mean, you’re great at pivoting and figuring out how to work in new situations. So that’s what I would say to all the entrepreneurs is just keep going, no matter what ups and downs, you can do this, you can set your goals, you can make those goals, so just go do it.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And I like what you said to also not only just moving forward, but in terms of diversification. And I think a lot of doctors realize, Hey, I got this is my one job. It’s my one income, all the eggs in one basket. And now, you know, for for a few of them. Unfortunately, our colleagues, they either lost their job or anyone furloughed, and it just realizes, hey, just like what you’re doing with your businesses, real estate, maybe MSL positions, so many different opportunities. I think it’s definitely opened up some eyes in terms of that multiple streams of income that we all talk about.

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
Yes, diversifying not only your income, but what you’re doing. Absolutely.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I’m having fun doing it too, right. Yeah,

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
yeah, exactly.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
All right, Michelle, again, we’re gonna need to get you back and want to find out with your new job position. But thanks again. And, as always, it’s always a challenge

Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley
for you to see you later, Mike.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thanks, Michelle. If you want to hear more about Michelle and her story, check out episode number five. And number 67. She talks about her non clinical job journey, she’ll be having an amazing event coming up this spring, if you’re interested in non clinical opportunities, definitely encourage you to be a subscriber to this podcast. We’re going to talk more about that as we get closer to that event. Now on the bootstrap MD podcast, we’ve been able to highlight a number of successful physician entrepreneurs. We’ve also had non physician entrepreneurs as well. Throughout the years, I’ve been able to connect with and network with some of the biggest online business entrepreneurs that are out there. I’ve been hearing a lot from the listeners lately about more about online business strategies, such as how can I monetize my blog more? How can I launch a successful online course? How can I market myself better, and I hope to have more of those types of episodes in the upcoming months. And one of the most popular episodes that I still get feedback from his my next gentleman’s episode where I interviewed him. It was episode number 43. on how to how to write a book in under 60 minutes. And it again, it was one of the most talked about episodes we’ve ever launched. Let’s hear from Robert plank.

Robert Plank
What really great ideas do you wish you have implemented in your medical business in your online business? What really great advice Have you heard from Dr. Mike or from one of his games And you just never had the time to implement it. Well, lately, I have been hiring teams of employees to do things for me, like write emails for me, write books, edit books, creates covers and graphics, update old books and create new graphics, write promotional emails for me, edit and produce podcasts for me, find me new clients to edit unpublished podcasts and upload an edited podcast for them to hiring people. And having them do the work for you is one of the best things that that you could ever do. And maybe you have found yourself trying to pivot from some of those in office employees to remote workers. Or maybe you have to have to rebuild, or you’ve been even thinking about having remote workers do some of the tasks that you just don’t want your regular people to do whatever it is, there are three tools lately that have really made this possible. For me, tool number one is a task manager called Asana as a na, it’s free, just get the free level. And what you can do is create a list of tasks for yourself and say, Well, today, I want to name my podcast and you make it as a task. And you can set a due date or just leave it as something on your to do list, and then check it off and it’s done. And then when you bring someone else on board in your business or stay more organized, you can say, oh, here is this task that I want done. I want someone to spend one hour proofreading my book, and you assign it to Mike. And then when Mike goes in and does it, then you can see that he has checked it off. So this tool Asana is really great for managing even your current employees or your future employees, or your in office employees or your remote workers, just giving them 45 minute or so tasks to do and then checking it off. And this might even be some menial kind of work, it might be just write a quick email to blast to my patients telling them about, like our latest offer or our latest promotion. And what if you tasked someone an hour just to write a quick 100 word message. And that’s just something that you did not have to do. The second tool that has helped so much is another free tool. It’s a chat tool called slack. And if you if you use message, you know systems like you know, Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, Skype, it’s the same idea only with Slack, you can use this app just for workplace activities and not have to mix your you know, I messaged with all of this, and you can create chat rooms and things like that. So slack helps so much, especially if your workers get stuck. Or if you’re having them clock in or out slack is a great place to chat with your employees, especially like we said, if they’re working remotely now, now you can stay in touch, and they can ask you about tasks. And then the third and final tool we’re talking about today is called Udemy u d, e m y. And this is a course marketplace, where for about $20, you can buy a course for your employee and teach them how to create graphics, how to write email marketing, copy how to publish books, you can just buy a course for them, and have them spend a week or two or however long it takes going through a course learn a new skill, and then have them finally just implement some of the things in your business that you’ve always wanted to go ahead and do like having an email sequence or having a new website or getting yourself on podcasts or finally getting into video marketing or social media marketing. Instead of having to hire a specialist or instead of having to learn it yourself or do it yourself. Buy a course on Udemy for one of your employees remote or or in person, chat with them on slack so that way they can check in and tell you how things are going and then use this tool called Asana where you can assign enough tasks to fill up the day and the week assign them to this person, have them leave a comment under the task and say I wrote this email for you I created this graphic for you and they can check those things off. Really think about if you have been hesitating about hiring a person or about getting into some of the more advanced online activities that you know you should be doing. Asana for task management, slack for chat and Udemy for the course that you buy to put them to learn this new skill and put them through this course My name is Robert plank from WWE hw book, my podcast and website Is marketer of the date.com. Dr. Mike is such a cool guy. He has a wonderful podcast, I’m sure he’s going to come out with many more 1000s of episodes in the future. Please continue listening, you’re going to love it. And most of all, importantly, continue implementing the things that he teaches and tells you and the things that his guests say. And if you’re stuck, then contact me contact Mike, or have an employee use these three tools to get it done.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thanks, Robert. Thanks for the kind words, you know, straight out of the gate just giving you guys great content, great nuggets of information. If you want to hear more from Robert hemming his, his marketing genius, you need to check out his podcast, Marketer of the day with Robert Plank podcast, subscribe to it, you won’t regret it. And my next guest really encapsulates what it is to be a bootstrapped MD. This search and really had to reinvent himself. He bootstrapped his business, and in 73 days he was able to develop a six figure income. If you want to hear more about his story you can find out in Episode 19. Let’s see what Dr. George Huang is up to. All right, we got the illustrious Dr. George Huang here. And George, your episode was one of the most well received a podcast episodes that I’ve done. And what was interesting is, it was one of the few that you actually came down to San Diego not just to my office. It just so happened that you were there and we decided to record a podcast and if I remember we did it twice.

Dr. George Huang
Oh, that’s right. The first time. It didn’t take us in no problem. We’ll do it over.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah. What a trooper. Well, what are you up to? It’s been a while since we’ve chatted,

Dr. George Huang
it has Yeah, so part of my journey. I think when we last spoke, I was working and I still have some clients who are holistic physicians. And but what happened since then is I found out about a an online video conferencing and networking platform. It’s called Remo not the drum company, but Remo Remo CO and so I started using it. And I started I had a conversation with the CEO and Founder and this is like I discovered this platform in November of 2019 2019. And then I started having conversations that turn into almost daily conversations starting December 2019 and heading into January 2020. And given you know I’m a strategist, I have worked with entrepreneurs literally from around the world. I’ve created financial software for entrepreneurs, I’m a conversion copywriter since giving all these tips based on that experience and one thing led to another and for the first several months I was really volunteering my time literally even into whatever it was that

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
you’re just a customer at the time you like the product

Dr. George Huang
I love the product yeah and I was volunteering my advice and then it got to the point where as volunteering more time for remote then I was spending time with my business that paid me money. Ah so So long story short, so now I’m a full time member of the team I have an equity stake in the company and our valuation has just skyrocketed our customer base is skyrocket we’ve converted converted from being a kind of like the proverbial build the airplane as you fly. We ditched that we we’ve now we’re now building the rocket plane as we the rocket ship as we fly.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And just we’ll have the link in the show notes. Yeah. Is our E mo Have you spelled it just

Dr. George Huang
re mo

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
and so what have you like that platform as opposed to all the zooms of the world? And yeah, well that

Dr. George Huang
question when I so remos unique and different because when you come into this space you will see a virtual conference room or whatever we call it a floor plan you can have whatever floor plan you want. You can have a beach scene if you want you have tables and seats in a beach or in a conference room or in a on a spaceship if you want okay and it what’s different about us compared to say zoom is that we can you can move freely at will from table to table and from floor to floor and from virtual building to virtual building. Whereas in zoom until they they had the breakout rooms but until recently you were stuck in breakout rooms called zoom jail. Right? But it’s just you’re there you see other people but here we have visuals that give you orientation and that set the mood and set the the environment for the type of meeting or conversation you want to have

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Wow, yeah, you just timed it right? Yeah,

Dr. George Huang
exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Wow. That’s great. Well, what I’ve been asking my returning podcast guests is, you know, what do you have? What can you share with our with our physician entrepreneurs, whether it’s a tip or some advice, or maybe prediction for the for this year?

Dr. George Huang
Yeah. So my number one tip would be to, if you’re not doing it already, get involved with producing and hosting online events with Coronavirus. It’s not too late if you haven’t done it, but with Coronavirus, more and more people have gotten used to being online. And whether it’s work from home online or go get education online or attend other events online, all the above. The reason I recommend doing that is because even once Coronavirus, settles down which it will at a certain point who knows exactly when vaccine or not. But it will settle down. And but we’re not going back to the way things used to be we’re going to have a world where we have a combination of live events and virtual events, hybrid events. So virtual events are going to come become even more popular. So for physician entrepreneurs, no matter what area of entrepreneurship, you’re involved with, more than likely you will find a place for virtual events in your business and your business model.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, I mean, you know, now, you know, zoom and VH is just commonplace for me. You know, my kids, and I’m sure your kids with school, and everything. And we’re just used to it now. And now. It’s like, I’m looking at things like like in real estate, and they have to Okay, well, where am I going to have my online part in the in the house? What am I going to be recording this? Yeah. And, you know, it’s, it’s just, you know, there’s there’s obviously the Coronavirus, it’s been pretty, it’s taken its toll. But if you could find a silver lining to it, it’s now we are just more accustomed to talking on a computer talking in front of our camera. And it’s just, the sharing of information is just gone, you know, a thousandfold.

Dr. George Huang
And absolutely, and there are advantages to virtual that more and more people are discovering, because now you have international reach in a heartbeat in a few clicks, you’re International. And that that opens up opportunities for meeting people that you normally wouldn’t have met and developing collaborations that you couldn’t have developed before.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Wow. Well, you got to listen to Dr. Huang. You don’t have to let me know the next time you the company that you’re going to envision you’re going to predict because it seems like you’re definitely ahead of the curve about what’s coming up. So, George, it’s always good to see you and let’s stay in touch. Thanks again. Thanks, George. My next guest also has one of our most downloaded episodes was way back in Episode Number three, where he shared with us in overlook passive income strategy. Let’s talk to my friend Travis Tollestrup, and see what he’s up to.

Travis Tollestrup, my friend, how are you doing? It’s been a while since we’ve chatted. I just want to know what what are you currently working on something that you could share with our audience today?

Travis Tollestrup
Oh, thanks for thanks for having me back here real quick. Dr. Mike, we have been busy. We have been super busy. As you remember, we talked a little bit about self directed IRA investing in one of

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
our most popular episodes.

Travis Tollestrup
Oh, that’s that’s exciting to hear. And and I I don’t see it slowing down. I feel like that that knowledge is kind of being brought out into the mainstream, and a lot of people don’t know about it. So I think it’s super neat. We spend a lot of time doing that helping doctors. We’re out. If you remember, we’re out investing in a lot in the Midwest, right? So we’re out in Kansas, we’re in Indianapolis. And we just we love the bread and butter deals that we can pick up there. And we’ve we actually hit phase one of our mission, which was to help 100 families get a home that they didn’t think they could get through a lease with the option to purchase. And that’s been exciting. And none of that could have happened without any of our private lenders who are mostly doctors and surgeons. So we really appreciate that a lot of them investing out of tax deferred, some tax free vehicles. There’s a little bit of structuring that needs to happen just because a lot of doctors are high income earners. So to actually qualify for one of the tax free accounts, is a little bit more difficult, but with some strategy, it can help Definitely be done. But for the most part, they’re investing at a tax deferred, or just taxable buckets. But it’s exciting. We, you know, this, on average, were placing a new family into a home at least once a week. Wow, that’s been really, really good. And we hope to double that. So we’ve, we’ve been in one in one of our markets, we we’ve helped 100 families. And that took us about 36 months. And renovations were our main bottleneck, right? herding, herding cats with contractors, right if you’ve ever done some of that, but the neat thing is we do a lot of that. And the private investors don’t have to worry about that. They just collect their monthly interest checks, and, but we keep them apprised of everything we’re doing with lots of cool updates. So but it’s been fun, we’ve been blessed. And it’s interesting, through a pandemic, we’ve actually seen showings, we’ve actually tripled our number of showings doubled the number of applications we have on these properties. And the bulk of them have been essential workers, right, that are that have money that have disposable income, and just looking to, you know, have a chance to get their own home, through the rent to own program that we that we do together with our investors. So it’s been great.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, and I know just kind of the buzz now is more physicians are getting into real estate investing just more passive income. And yeah, it’s an episode you guys really have to check out. So I’ve been asking my my guests about what predictions or a tip you have. I mean, with the new year comes new goals, new projects, new ideas, something they haven’t considered in the past, what can you give, to share with our audience today for 2021?

Travis Tollestrup
Oh, wow, that’s a loaded question. Lots of things here. But you know, one thing I would say you mentioned, more and more are starting to gravitate towards this, the security and predictability and control that they have over a real estate based investment. And I don’t see things changing anytime soon, with the you know, rates will probably stay a little bit lower. I wish I had a crystal ball about how this foreclosure and eviction moratorium, you know how that’s going to affect the markets, there will be some Fallout and shakeout on that. But I would, my tip would be if you haven’t gotten involved, I definitely would suggest finding an experienced operator that’s doing this full time, we’re a little bit different, this is more self serving, but it’s like we the doctors that invest with us, it’s it, they’re secured specifically with a note and a mortgage or a deed of trust secured to an actual property. So it’s different than investing in fun in a fund where you, you know, you’re buying shares. And and some people like that, they like that additional security. But I would say jump in, you know, the water’s great, you know, and it’s and it’s predictable, and it’s secure. And I feel like, you know, it needs to be a portion of your portfolio. I know, there’s lots of other options, you know, that might be you know, faster moving, projected returns are much higher. But I think your foundation, it’s just a great opportunity. And then if you can, you know, learn to do it in a tax deferred or tax free environment, man that just, you know, that optimizes your rate of return, which is just huge. So, but yeah, I would say, you know, really get going private lending is becoming more and more of a trend, you know, for physician entrepreneurs and allowing them to kind of see that light at the end of the tunnel, you know, where their passive income ultimately will replace their active income and just start to provide more flexibility and options.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right being the bank as opposed to the bank, and a pen control and Best place best place to reach out to Travis

Travis Tollestrup
Capstone funding group comm we’ve got a free private lender FAQs guide there for you and happy to get on the phone and even if it’s just a you know, second set of fresh eyes, you know, on anything you’re doing or looking at a lot of times we we do that you know, we’ve done a lot of planning with people and I really enjoy that so it’s very fulfilling, but yeah, please reach out. Anything I can do to be of help helping you kind of jump into that game. A lot of our people come in passively but we do you know, also coach some people actively that do duplicate our model. And are having lots of success. So, but anyway, yeah, all the best in 2021 This is exciting.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
All right, Travis. So good for him for you and and same to you ever wonderful 2021. And just so great with what you’re doing and helping those families.

Travis Tollestrup
Thank you, sir.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thank you, Travis. Now last but certainly not least, we cannot complete the special 100th episode of the bootstrap MD podcast. Without the efforts of my next guest. She has been featured in a total of six episodes, Episode Number 21, number 26. Number 31. Number 44. Number 57. And just recently on episode number 99, he was a speaker and my first BootstrapMD md conference, and then became my business partner on the second bootstrap MD conference. If you’ve been a listener to my podcast, she really needs no introduction, my good friend, you know, or your lover, Dr. H coborn. My Isha How you doing?

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
My friend! good to be back.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
It’s been a long time. And and as you know, I’ve been asking guests, he’s kind of updating them on what they’re at what projects are you like, what are you currently working on right now?

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
Well, so as those of you those of the listeners and you know who have who have followed me, you know that I’ve transitioned into the mind remapping Academy. So I now you know, my big slogan and our past time together and our past conference, the boot camp and be live was, you know, get your mind, right. And that actually led me somewhere. I am an NLP trainer, and hypnosis trainer and master NLP coach. And I thought it was time for me to bring that training forward. So I started the mind remapping Academy, and I’m now teaching and training and certifying others in neuro linguistic programming, and hypnosis, and, and actually as coaches. So we’re the big project that I’m working on now is we have our upcoming training here in a couple of weeks, and I’m just getting people in.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So what type of physician would be right for this type of training?

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
Wow. So you know, first of all, there are some physicians who just know they they’re interested in NLP, they’re interested in hypnosis and, and I’ve had doctors reach out to me who have been looking, so if that’s you, then just just go ahead and reach out to me, other dogs, you know, if you are wanting to be a coach, if you’ve been considering coaching as an option, this type of work, this type of coaching training, is above and beyond the rest type the rest of the coaching trainings, because it gives you additional tools in your toolbox that are not given in traditional coach trainings, that allow you to elevate your results, get your result haven’t have your results be deeper, faster, better. And at the same time, you also get that personal development in yourself. And you get to the root of why why you think the way you do, why you behave, your beliefs and the access to shifting those into a more empowering place so that you can effectively grow your business or coaching practice. So those are the two types of people, those who already know they’ve been interested. Because you’re interested, you either know you don’t know, right? You know about it, and you’re interested, or you don’t know about it, and you’re wondering, and those who are wondering, these are these are the dogs who are thinking about becoming coaches.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And I think it’s so rare. Since I’ve used NLP in my life. And I’ve seen the benefits, you know, from that it’s such a powerful, powerful mindset, powerful strategy. Do you have any tips or advice you want to give to our listeners going into 2021?

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
Yeah, well, speaking of get your mind, right. Um, you know, when we look back at 2020, it was it was a challenging year in many respects. And I saw Yeah, man, that’s at least to say the least. And I saw I’ve seen a lot of means coming up on this final quarter of 2020. Like, no flooring away, 2020 or 2020 what 2020 is like, and I think that and then even people who are like, you know, don’t claim 2021 as your own and don’t, you know, get really skeptical about the coming year. But I think that it’s important to number one, acknowledge what you’ve learned in 2020 acknowledge what you’ve accomplished in 2020. Right. Not to necessarily ignore the bad, but to refocus and take the good with the bad without darkness there can be no light right? Then the 2020 has gone now it’s the past. And while things may not have much change in the world of the pandemic, we are still at the source of creating our lives. Every one of you out there are at the source. And you know, one of the things I teach in NLP is that no matter the circumstances, you’re at the helm, you’re in the driver’s seat. So what are you going to do with the blank pages of 2021? You get to choose.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
See that NLP you just did? I’m already imagining the the pages I need to fill that in. This is man, it’s so powerful. Mikey, we’re gonna go to get more information about what you’re currently doing. What’s the best place?

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
Yeah, so if you want to learn more about the NLP and the mind mapping, if you want to learn more about the upcoming training, just go to remap my mind.com. That’s remap my mind.com.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
All right, and we’ll have the links in our show notes. My Isha. It’s so great to see you again. We got it. Yes. All right. Well,

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
congratulations on your 100th episode.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thanks again.

Dr. Maiysha Clairborne
Thank you.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And that’s a wrap 100 episodes in the bank. If you made it all the way through. Congratulations to yourself. I want to thank Dr. Lynn Marie Morski, Dr. Michelle Mudge-Riley, Travis Tollestrup, Dr. George Huang, Dr. Maiysha Clairborne, Dr. John Jurica, Dr. Peter Kim, Robert plank and Dr. Christopher Loo. Again, I wish it could have had all of my guests and again, I wish I could have had all of you on but love all you guys. You know who you are. And you all contributed to the success of this podcast. And if you’re a listener, and you would like to be spotlighted. Feel free to drop us a line at bootstrap MD comm if you want to go to past recordings, past podcast recordings, you can find that also on the website at BootstrapMD me.com slash podcast. Feel free to subscribe. We’re on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. As always, guys, I hope in some way, I helped inspire you motivated, you kicked your butt a little bit with some tough love. If you’re looking to start your own business, don’t let the naysayers stop you from doing it. Listen to the person inside of you and keep moving forward.

Filed Under: Entrepreneurship, Interviews

By

Empowering Women Physician Entrepreneurs Through Community

Board-certified plastic surgeon Dr. Sharon McLaughlin felt alone as a female physician entrepreneur. 

Having created a successful skin care line for her private practice, she yearned to connect with other women entrepreneurs, to network and share experiences.  Unfortunately,  what she found was a ghost town.

So just like any good entrepreneur would do, she went and created her own solution!  She is the founder of the popular Facebook group Female Physician Entrepreneurs that has over 6000 members, some of whom I’ve interviewed here on the BootstrapMD podcast. 

On this episode, she also shares the trials and tribulations of starting a new business, her new ventures including an online weight loss program, and her consulting company.

Be inspired by her story, and how having a sense of community with like-minded individuals who have mutual goals can be the foundation of something big.

——

https://www.facebook.com/groups/FemalePhysicianEntrepreneurs/
– Facebook group Female Physician Entrepreneurs

https://sharonmackwellness.com/
– Sharon Mack Wellness – Whole Body Wellness Blueprint

https://sharonmackmd.com/
– Sharon Mack Consulting

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Hey, guys, this is Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to another edition of BootstrapMD. As you know, I love to highlight physician entrepreneurs and especially physician entrepreneur influencers. And today I’m honored to be joined by my friend, Dr. Sharon McLaughlin. She is a New York board certified plastic surgeon turned entrepreneur, she’s been involved in a lot of different projects evolved a skincare line, lingerie line, weight loss wellness program, I guess that’s kind of popular right now, weight loss. And you probably best know, her for the being the founder of the female physician entrepreneurs group, over 6000 members are in this group. They’re networking, and many of my guests have actually been inspired by being in that group. It’s the Facebook group that you’ll definitely want to check out. But without further ado, Sharon, nice to have you on the program today, too.

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Dr. Mike, thank you so much. I am honored to be here, and you have always inspired me. One of our first talks together, you had talked about being an entrepreneur in medical school. And the thought of that, I was like, I all I did was study, you know? We went out once in awhile but all I did was study. Let alone trying to do entrepreneurship, or thinking outside the box, thinking like there’s more to medicine than just medicine, I can do so many things. So thank you for inspiring us and thank you for all the work that you do in this field. As far as, physicians entrepreneurship, you really have opened our eyes that there’s so many different avenues to go down.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thank you so much, and you know, I don’t want the spotlight. The spotlight is on you today. But, I do appreciate it and speaking of medical school, you know, I’m not gonna give away my age, but I was in medical school and residency in the 90s. And one of the things that got me motivated, and kept me sane, was listening to music. And I listened to a lot of music that dealt with a lot of female singer songwriters. So my question to you is, how many times have you been mistaken for Sarah McLaughlin?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
More so in the past, because then people like, nothing against Sarah, I’m really sorry. I love your music. But now people are like well, who Sarah McLaughlin? But years ago, absolutely, yes, all the time. And it’s funny that you mentioned medical school and music because one of my favorite outlets was going down to Bleecker Street, and just listening to acoustic music. And I would just like, be lost. And I was like, I don’t want to leave here. I don’t want to go back to reality of all this studying. But it’s something we did.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
It’s something we did. And you know, it kept me sane through the boards and everything like that. But just a little fun question to start off with. So I want to know about your journey. You have a very popular podcast, you’ve interviewed a lot of physician, female entrepreneurs. But how did you get started in this crazy, becoming your own boss business?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I had never really worked for somebody in private practice, it was always me, myself and I. And I started with skincare and the line really took off. It was just a private label. But it astounded me that you could actually make cash doing things outside of practicing. And then I set up a website as far as shipping, but I’m still shipping. So that was something I always kept in mind. Like it’s nice to have products, but that shipping and yes, you could hire it out. But I even thought back then, what a great thing just to have digital products online. Where that’s all you have to worry about is just you know, automating the system so that when someone purchases, you can download it or it’s kind of like hands off, right? I enjoy medicine very much but I believe that we can do so many different things. And as physicians, especially with the way medicine is right now, a lot of us get burnt out. And I was definitely burnt out. I’m gonna say it started around 2009 and I stayed in it until at least the end of 2011. I started a new job in 2012 with a company reviewing radiology requests, utilization review. But I’d gotten into that and I tell the story before, if you’ve heard it, if you haven’t heard it, I will tell you. I was very busy. I had a young family young daughter, she was sickly when she was first born. And I had a hard time managing everything. I just kept on going and going, I didn’t see an outlet, I didn’t see a light at the end of the tunnel. I just felt like, you know, I was making money and how would I replace this money? At this time truthfully, my loans were paid off. My loans were paid off that first year I was out of medical school. Which was something I’d always promised my dad that I would do. But I just didn’t see any other way out. And then I was approached by the CMO of a hospital I was working at to do utilization quality management review for the hospital. And it was not a paid job, I said yes, because I didn’t know anything. I didn’t want issues with privileges, the hospital where I felt the most comfortable. Like I think most doctors, at least I can answer for myself, there’s always one hospital that just seems to be very special. And this place was special. In more ways than one I was actually born in that hospital. But it just felt like home. It was just a few blocks from where I grew up, and then on top of that it was all the people that I worked with in that hospital, they just made things easy for me. People can make things difficult, they can make it easy. And they went out of their way to make it easy. So when he said can you do this, I felt like I had no choice. I just said “oh, sure”. But I remember walking away and honestly there were tears in my eyes because I was like how am I going to do this? It was just one more thing at the back of the burner to do. So that’s how I actually ended up getting into quality assurance, quality utilization review. And then from there, I started doing consulting work. Honestly, I think at the time, those jobs were easier to get than they are now, lless competition. But I was able to make side income doing that, and it was a great start. And then when I got burned out with my practice, I shifted into that. This job opened up and I just took it. I must say, I didn’t really look into it, it was a stepping stone for me. I didn’t realize at the time, it was a stepping stone. I thought it was the answer to what I was looking for. The salary wasn’t great, but I took it because I felt like there was no way out. And at least I could be at home, and at least I had more stable hours than being on call. I did a lot of emergency room call. A lot of you know, lacerations. And then I did even the most closures which you could say there’s really no emergencies in dermatology. But these weren’t little life distal things. Some of them were and that was great, but others were like 5, 6, 7, at night and then you know you have to wait for OR time and half the nose was gone, or the whole nose was gone. And we’re talking like major reconstruction. You just never knew what you’re gonna get when it comes to MOHS. You could see the patient ahead of time and kind of guess estimate, but by and large it was a very unstable lifestyle. I don’t know if unstable is the word, but it was not planned. It was certainly not a nine to five, and it was always like one day to the next was different. And that definitely caused a lot of anxiety, especially with childcare, I never had a live in nanny, nor did I want one. So started from there, and then it just grew.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Just so I have the time line right, so you closed your practice?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
At that time. No, it didn’t.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Oh you still had it up, but you had to at least reduce your hours right?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
That’s correct. I tried to move more into skincare. I know that you can make money off of that. I did a lot of Botox and the injectables, to me that was like easy work. But I didn’t find it as rewarding, I have to be honest with you. I actually enjoy doing the reconstructive surgery. I enjoyed, you know, people that truly what I thought needed my help and that is what I was trained to do. And I think injectables are absolutely great, but they just weren’t challenging enough for me, they didn’t sustain me.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So you had your family at the time? And are you the only breadwinner of the family, or your husband also?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Now he’s does pretty good, he’s a CRNA. Here in New York, can’t account for the rest of the country but, high twos, very high twos, like close to three for his salary. He always did extra overtime.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Okay, so and supporting you on this career transition?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Not at all, Mike.Not at all. 100% not at all. We had a really bad marriage at that point. We were fighting a lot, and I remember talking with one of my girlfriends, Marjorie, if you’re listening, Dr. Reed. She said to me, “You know, Sharon he married a plastic surgeon.” and I was like, “but this is my life, Marge”. You know, I don’t get this I as long as I contribute financially, what difference does it make isn’t about me and being happy and I felt like I had to answer to people when I stepped away. And you know, my parents were deceased at the time. I don’t know what they would have said, but I know my sisters and we’ve had this discussion. Why, why why? Why are you doing this all this training? I don’t understand. And I was like, it’s not up to you to understand it is up to me to understand. And that was really a hard time in my life. I’m a cancer survivor. I think that was harder for me. You know, going through this transition was harder for me than going through the treatments.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Wow. So sorry to interrupt, just wanted to get an idea where you were at.

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
No, I do bounce around a lot and I slowly transition. But you know, here I am talking about burnout. But I had a full time job doing the utilization review, but I just couldn’t give away that practice just yet,. It’s something that we had worked so hard for, and I just wanted to, like, touch it somehow, you know, just keep it. But I realized that, you know, I was burnt out and I needed to let that go. So maybe finding the injectables not challenging enough was just an excuse just to let it go. I’m not sure. But I did let it go. It took a while though. I’ve always done wellness, though. That’s why I’m doing the weight loss now. But going through burnout, I think wellness is so important overall. And I know we hear a lot about physician wellness. So much so, especially when it comes from administrators, it’s hard because they’re not walking in our footsteps, right? But overall, whether if we’re physicians or people outside of medicine, we don’t take care of ourselves as Americans, and that’s why we have so many chronic diseases. So education has always been important to me. I’ve done blogs throughout the years, had a YouTube channel that I’ve done here and there, I’m more consistent with it now. But that was how I continued my practice, even though I didn’t really require malpractice at all, and it wasn’t in practicing seeing patients. But educating the public has always been important to me.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So you’re doing utilization review, you eventually did close that part of your practice. When did your entrepreneurship juices start flowing?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Even in my practice though, because I was doing the skincare, then scar lines, right, like we knew about silicone gel sheets, and I found a manufacturing plant down in Texas that would do that for me. So I private labeled that. So that was good. I started doing my own line, actually. I manufactured me own skincare line for a while. But when I gave up the practice that went with it, because I was just like, I don’t want to inventory and at that point I was burnt, just nothing. But when I did do that, when I stepped away from the practice, the lingerie line actually came to be. So I ended up with double mastectomies, and trying to find lingerie that actually fit appropriately was really hard. So this is how this all came to be, as far as designing the lingerie line. I live close to New York City. So there was the fashion district, I have no design experience whatsoever. But I was determined to do it. I basically started Googling online designed, some protocols had it made, had the prototype made. And then I had it manufactured in Brooklyn, actually. And that did okay, but again, it was really hard to market. It was like fun, there was some interest, but I certainly didn’t throw myself into it. And I just kept on going back to what I was making as a physician. And my husband was not supportive. So, but I can’t blame in all honesty, I can’t blame this on him. It was just I myself felt like I need to contribute more. I wasn’t sure if we were going to get divorced or not. And I definitely needed a financial out, like I needed my own money.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, how are we today? What are we doing now?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Still utilization review, I took a job with the state plan in New York State. And I’ve been doing that, it’ll be seven years in January. And so I’m able to work from home. Definitely better stable lifestyle, marriage is better, daughter’s doing good. And it still allows me opportunity to do some more entrepreneurship. Hence the start of the Facebook group, because I felt like I just needed those creative juices like you mentioned. The best thing to do, is to be around people that are going and doing, and didn’t have that in my life. So I felt like if I needed that maybe we can inspire each other.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
When did you actually start the group? And how did how did that evolve? Did you just say, I’m going to start up a Facebook group? Or did you have some entrepreneur friends and say, hey, let’s get together? How did it all get started?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I just remember being in a Facebook group and saying like, this is all about like husbands. At that point, I was like, I want to talk about business, and I couldn’t find it at all. I didn’t know about Nisha made group, this group actually, Nisha had started her group long before I did or had this idea. I didn’t know about hers, had I jumped into hers maybe I never would have thought about the group. But wanted one space for physician, female physicians because they, I felt like I could relate to them the most, as far as burnout goes, and then doing other things. I think I was always creative, this is why I went into plastic surgery. So I had the idea, I had reached out to a couple of people. They said this is good. You know, I started Googling people actually. I googled female physician entrepreneurs. And the first one that popped up was Cheryl Ross. So I sent her an email, I said, Would you be interested in joining a Facebook group? I didn’t even know her. And she didn’t know me. And she said, Okay, put me in the group. And that’s I honestly started Googling physician names. And that’s how this it was word of mouth. And honestly, it wasn’t like it just started and boomed. People added, people out of their friends, but it was quiet and crickets. And I’m gonna say this, for months, I felt like it was quiet and crickets. I just was like posting every day, there wasn’t much engagement at all. And then slowly, like, we’re talking months, it started increasing. I don’t know if I ever thought about giving up. But I did scratch my head like, nobody’s talking here and there’s no engagement. Is this even worth persisting? But I saw the numbers were going up, so I just kept with it. And you know, it’s like anything else, you just have to keep with it. And I tried all different things, different articles. At the time, I don’t think we were we weren’t dinged as much for posting outside of Facebook. So I would like to find articles and forums, and I would talk about that, and what are your thoughts on that and, you know, ink.com, and success. And then find some entepreneurs and share their story, and then certainly promote within the group, you know, a lot of networking. The group is about discussion, but with so many people in the group, it’s not like a pitch fest, either. We do networking threads, we’re actually going to do a networking call tomorrow, where we kind of introduce ourselves, talk about our business for a couple of minutes, and then present a problem. You know, this was it was someone else’s idea in the group, not mine, I had wanted to do an entrepreneurship panel, we’re doing panels now in the group. And I just didn’t know how to bring that about. Our last one, I’m just going to tell you, our first one, I figured it was good to get started off with, it was all about intimacy and sex. And is that a discussion most of us have and as female physicians, some of us may feel, like how can we talk about those things? We should know those things, but you know, definitely infidelity and just problems, in the bedroom. So there were some specialists with expertise, and our group got them together, it was a great panel. Next week will be about physician burnout, but the panels will be related to things that, you know whether they’re social or things that we see in the group. So the panels started, that’s something that I’ve added to the group. But this all came about just because honestly, it’s election week, everyone’s so stressed. There’s some mindful groups as it is, so like what can I possibly add to my group? I’m always thinking, pivoting, trying to think of different things that will work. And honestly, some don’t work and others do. But you just keep on going and you try different things. So that’s what we’re going to do tomorrow, like a networking session where we introduce ourselves, talk about our business and then present a problem. Like, I’m having a problem with this, and then kind of brainstorm. It’s like a brainstorming session.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So election week, I didn’t even know. What are the big issues that female physician entrepreneurs have that we may not be aware of?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I don’t know if they’re any different than the male, to be honest with you. I think, this is my own biased opinion, I still think that women are the primary caretakers of the children within the home, regardless of what the husband is doing. I could speak for myself, I see it. So then there lies the problem because there’s that guilt feeling, like, do you leave the kids, do your business, there’s no time to do a side business? And all I can say to that is just only takes 15 minutes a day, just take some time, map out what you want. That is the most important thing, is to have direction and outline. Because if you don’t, if you just sit down, and we know this was social media, we’re going to post on social media just we sit down and try to do it. Right? Your brain is a total blank, you don’t know what to post. But if you planned it out ahead of time, it’s the same thing with a business plan, if you plan it out ahead of time, you know what to do. And if you don’t do it, then there’s a question like, well, why isn’t this happening?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Do you think that, and I agree with that because you know, they have an extra burden or extra responsibility of raising the family, childcare, etc. But I do sympathize with you in terms of, what does the family think you know about this? I had the same thing, I was not as rbrave as you. I didn’t even tell my mom until like a year later that I was leaving medicine. But, you know, luckily, I did have a supportive spouse. But you think it’s harder being a woman? Telling your husband versus, vice versa?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I’m gonna say no to that, I don’t think so. But I will tell you, the ones that have a supportive spouse do better. I see it, there’s no studies that I know of to support this. But the people that are really excelling in the group, and I’m sure you see it, too, they have supportive spouses. And people that have fighting spouses, it makes it that much more difficult. And I’m not just talking about my husband, Bob. Just like in general. If you compare the two groups, there must be something to be said for that. Whether the home life itself feels more comfortable, and you’re just you have the support, and you just like oo, go, go, let’s go. Or you’re just kind of on your own, even though you’re married and trying to do this alone, it makes it harder for sure. But I’m not so sure that there’s difference between a male and a female. In general, I think that men are more out to try different things are more risk takers. That being said, I know the numbers are more equivalent now in medicine. Men are typically more the breadwinner, more male physicians, at least in the past. So their opportunity to even step away from medicine being the breadwinner is more difficult, right? Because they’re the breadwinner. So then what other job is going to replace their current salary?

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Do you think that the new graduates now, the younger generation, they’re more open for looking into entrepreneurship, as opposed to you know, older doctors?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I definitely think so. You know, when I was younger, I would have like, early 30s, I used to see entrepreneurship in medicine, and it was the nurses. And I always wondered why physicians didn’t do that. I like at least the ones I was coming across. They would do home care, like pharmacy delivery, they did a lot of different things. They were involved in so much, even doing like the satellite, where they’re doing EKGs and trying to do contracts with the police, the local police. And I always wonderd, but then I was thinking, you know, maybe they have like a set salary doesn’t go much higher than that? So they want to try different things? Where the physicians are already at a higher salary. And it wasn’t until last 10 years, or whatever it is that I see definitely more physicians doing it. And it probably has to do with physician burnout, they’re burned out. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel. And it’s like kind of a means to an end, like how do I do this now? The whole idea about fire and, you know, retiring, at least practicing medicine on your own terms, rather than being told what to do.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I do think they do tend to be more open. But, you know, unfortunately, with medical school loans, you know, a lot higher than when you and I had back in the day, you know, it certainly is a big obstacle to climb. In terms of, building a business, what type of businesses are doctors in your group doing? Different types of business? Consulting? Where do they tend do go? Or is it akll over the place?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
It’s all over the place. But recently, there is a huge push to do coaching, a huge push. And I believe that’s because we’re healers. So when we see someone that’s down or sick or needs help, we want to heal them, we want to help them. And this is where coaching comes into play. There are a lot of coaches in the group. And recently it didn’t start off that way years ago. Definitely a lot of network marketing, I believe because it’s safe. It’s low income, like it’s a low cost to get into, right. And so there’s a lot of that, and then all different things. Wellness is huge as well, but I think that’s like inbred in physicians, wellness feels very comfortable to me. I hired a mentor back in the spring. And he’s very good with, you know, digital selling online. And he said to me, what do you want to do? And I honestly at the time was like, I could do like an entrepreneurship and be like the next Amy Porterfield. I was thinking that honestly, like, if I could push myself, that’s what I would do. But I always go back to wellness, because it’s something I feel comfortable with, even though I’m not integrative medicine or lifestyle medicine. It is like I could just read an article like skim it and like I understand it, where I can’t do that with, you know, digital marketing, it just is not natural to me. It’s something that is a learning curve. And I don’t feel that way with wellness. So as far as physicians go, something that’s related to what you’re already doing, and just maybe making, honestly, physicians like to teach. Informational products, I’m always going to push those digital products, because they’re easy to get started. Low cost, however you need, you need a following. So it’s either going to be organic traffic, or you’re going to do paid traffic. It’s a good idea and you just don’t come up with the idea and don’t try to sell it, test it test it with your friends. Test it with people that maybe are on Facebook groups, just try it. But we, as physicians, we like to teach, we know so much. If you have an idea, just try kind of outlining it and putting it into a course and see what happens.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yep, you gotta learn how to market. You could be the best coach, you could be Tony Robbins, but you know,if you got a one person email list nobody’s gonna hear you. So those are the skills like it or not, we got to learn, you know, social media, building a list, those are all things that for any type of business you’re going to need to learn. You mentioned one thing that, I thought was really interesting, is that you, you love medicine, you know that you still love medicine. Me as well, as someone who left medicine and then came back, you know, that was my first love. As I wrote in my book, you know how to love medicine again. But a lot of doctors go into entrepreneurship, because they don’t love it or something happened, they want to get out of it. What do you see? And again, in terms of your group, what do you see in terms of like success? And I’ll tell you what I see. But in terms of success of their business, do you see those who just want to do something else? Do you think they they tend to be more or less successful than those who still have that love?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I believe that we follow our path. Right? So I for me, that one is hard to generalize, I believe that some people, like have incorporated their medical practice, they’re still practicing. And their job, their side job is very similar, although differently. Like somebody’s been working in the emergency room, but they’re still doing wellness, and those types of people do very well. Where others have given up medicine. But I believe it was more out of necessity. There’s some people in our group as I’m sure yours, they admit to being suicidal. And at that point, that’s like a dead end. Where do you go from there? You can’t. Do you know what I mean? It’s a dead end, that choice was basically made for you, your body made that choice for you. So yeah, I know, I’m not exactly answering your question.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
No, it’s good. I’m thinking in terms of, all the entrepreneurs what I call “want-repreneurs”, and not to be derogatory, but they’re surely people who want to start businesses and for whatever reason, they’re just not ready to, to go into that direction. I often see people who just want to escape from something. I don’t think entrepreneurship is necessarily the first thing that you want to gravitate to, is what I usually tell people. Just like yourself, find a job that can pay the bills, find something different. And then explore it. Because as you know, entrepreneurship, it’s not the most stable business, stable line of work, that you can do, and it’s certainly not for everybody.

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
No, there’s a lot of ups and downs, there’s definitely anxiety, like it depends on why you feel burnt out. There’s no magic button, right? We talked about this all the time, it’s going to require work. So where are you going to make the time? I think some of the people have done really well, when they’ve left medicine, because they have the time they have time to devote. But if you’re leaving with, you know, questions like I’m not sure…I don’t know, then it’s very hard to dive right into entrepreneurship and throw yourself into that business, because you have to believe in the product or your service. Otherwise, if you don’t believe in it, 100% if you’re not able to fully dive into it, how could you expect others to buy the product? Right? They’re not going to because, and I’m not really into this stuff, you know, but I do believe that there is energy out there. Like what you portray. You feel confident? Great. But if you don’t people know, and it’s very hard to sell. When it comes to selling online, if that’s what you’re going to do, it’s videos. You need to be able to sell, which means getting in front of the camera and talking about it. So if you don’t feel 100% that’s a problem.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, I totally agree. You know, I think we come to this conclusion, that the people who’ve done well, it’s because they love doing it. They enjoy it. You know, for myself, I love creating things. I love marketing. I don’t love getting on the phone and trying to sell something, that’s not my skill, but it is something that I have to learn to do. Or at least if I have employees to learn how to do it, it’s part of it. But it just comes with it. You know, in medicine, we don’t love 100% of everything. There’s things that we love, things we don’t love but overall if we enjoy what we’re doing, we should go and do that. But I still see some people who want the “get rich quick”. They see ads and I want to do that. I want to be the next Uber, I want to be the next, you know, Zuckerberg, whatever. Yeah, more power to you, but it’s just like anything you know, when we went into become a doctor, we didn’t say hey, I want to become a doctor and then you know, open somebody up the next day, right? We had to go through training. And then same with entrepreneurship. I like what you’re doing in terms of networking, where you have your more experienced entrepreneurs, and you’ve got someone who can learn from them or mentor them. And that’s, that’s the one thing that, I listened to you on previous podcasts and you mention it here is, you know, one of the reasons why you started the group was because you felt alone, correct? When you were going through entrepreneurship journey?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Absolutely, there wasn’t a lot of support. Even though I have friends in medicine, they weren’t interested in entrepreneurship. They’re fine with it practices, fine working for a hospital system. They had no interest in doing something else. But if you surround yourself with people that are doing what you want to do, it makes it that much easier. I’m not saying you need to leave medicine, there’s ways to add ancillary practices, we have one of the physicians in the group that talks about that often, you guys don’t need to leave medicine, you just need to, you know, leverage what you already know. And start using some ancillary services. So that’s an option. But like Dr. Mike said, there is definitely no push the button, it’s going to require work. And if you feel like you’re burnt out already, then it’s really hard to throw that energy in because there’s just no energy left, right? Like you’re already like, the cup is empty. So it really goes back to working on yourself wellness, taking care of yourself, and kind of just thinking it out being in no rush. It will come and believing it will come.

You’ve done conferences. And for this reason, people should go to Dr. Mike’s conference. No, I’m not pushing it just for that. It’s important, because it’s not until you don’t know what you don’t know. And if you’re in a world where, I’m not happy, you don’t know what else is out there, because all you’re thinking about is being unhappy right now and how life sucks. But when you see other people succeeding and being happy doing what they truly enjoy, you can say yourself, well, they can do it, I can do it. I hope that you never feel like oh, they’re doing it and I’m kind of spiteful or jealous. Like look at somebody else and say, Yeah, they’re doing it, let them be the role model for you. If they can do it, you can do it. You’ve done so much with your life, you can figure this out. And if it’s not by yourself, and you hire a coach, or you hire other people, or you just start reaching out to people. These networking groups are great, because it’s a great way to see what other people are doing. But there’s nothing stopping you from reaching out.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, perfect, or Google them just as you did. And just as a side too, I love to have a conference. Unfortunately, folks have been asking. Nothing for 2020. But we’ll see what happens in 2021. But I want to segue to you talked about working on yourself, working on your wellness. You have a wellness program, can you tell us more about it?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
This is something I’ve been working on for a couple years. But the website, probably when I was just turning 50 it was cool, like weight loss and women over 50. And I just had the domain, I started the website and it just stayed there. I didn’t do anything with it. And then I had, well Covid came, and I really had a hard time with that. And I had some extra time. And I said you know I really want to do this. I reassess every once in a while. So in 2020 came that was like there was something on the back burner that I wanted to work on. And I was able to lose weight. And this was back last year at this time, actually, it was able to lose I had already lost weight. I’ve kept it off like over 20 pounds, which doesn’t seem like a lot for some people. But for me it was a lot. It was those pounds, are they put on during menopause, is it getting older? I’m not sure. And I had struggled to lose weight, I couldn’t do it. I tried all different things. And it was really a matter of just eating healthy, but it was more than, mindset too. So the wellness program that I created, it is a combination of nutrition, because I that’s like the most important thing. There’s some exercise, which is important but definitely not like the nutrition. And then it really goes into mindset. I actually do a guided meditation as far as weight loss goes. And then I do it’s self care as well. Importance of sleep and we go into other things as well, you know, other factors as well. But it is a whole body approach to losing weight. Not terribly expensive. You can say oh my goodness, why are you doing this? It’s it’s $29, I didn’t want to sell it to physicians. To me that wasn’t my target audience, it was a matter of having it affordable to everyone. So we’re actually getting together to put the pages together, the sales page and everything, around two o’clock today. So I’ll let you know how that goes. It’s for sale now, but I’m not happy with the sales pages, I just did it, I just throw it up there because I’m ready to sell it. But um, yeah, so you can find out more about that at SharonMackwellness.com. And then you’ll see that the sales pages will change in the next week or so.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And how do we spell that is that?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
Yeah, it’s SharonMackWellness.com.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Awesome. Awesome. Well, this has been a tremendous half hour that we spent together. We’re going to go outside of the wellness, where can we go to contact you or tell us more about your group. Where can we go to learn more about that?

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
I actually started a another website. I have like five of them right now. So what I did was, I know you guys, what it did was it’s called Sharon Mack m-a-c-k because most people can pronounce McLaughlin. md. I didn’t spell check it at all. I was just putting it together last night. It’s one page going down, but it has all the links out to like the Facebook groups that I have. And so you could find out more about that at SharonMackmd.com. And the female physician entrepreneurs, the Facebook group, Female Physician Entrepreneurs group.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
You can find that on Facebook, Dr. Sarah McLaughlin, I mean, Sharon! Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for helping spread the word of physician entrepreneurship, and keep inspiring others. It’s been amazing to be friends with you over this time in it. It’s been a pleasure interviewing you today.

Dr. Sharon McLaughlin
And to my thanks so much for having me on. And really thank you so much for inspiring all of us.

Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Thanks again. And thanks, everybody. Remember, if you’re not if you’re stuck, there’s more opportunities for networking. There’s people who have had the same problems that you do, you just need to go out and reach out to them. Go on to Dr. Sharon’s group and just get inspired. The one thing you want to do is stop staying stagnant. You just got to keep moving forward.

Filed Under: Articles, Entrepreneurship, Interviews Tagged With: female physician entrepreneur

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