When I was looking to see what my options I had as a clinical doctor interested in leaving the bedside many many moons ago, there wasn’t much. How things have changed in the last year!
However, the amount of info is almost overwhelming and it can be daunting to separate truth from fiction.
When I heard that a couple of family doctors were putting together a membership site to help navigate doctors looking for non-clinical opportunities I needed to learn more. I talk with the founders of Clinicians Careers Cooperative, Dr. John Jurica and Dr. Tom Davis, on why they decided to put together this groundbreaking educational portal and what they foresee as its impact in the future.
Join Clinicians Careers Cooperative Today and receive my special bonus “A Roadmap to Your Non-Clinical Career”, a simple checklist to help those wanting to make a change:
RAW TRANSCRIPT
Hey guys, it’s Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to another edition of BootstrapMD. We’ve got a first here I know I’m late to the zoom thing, but I’ve never had multiple guests on. So with the era of technology, even this 50 plus year old can finally figure out how to do it. So on the podcast is if you’re watching we’ve got these two gentlemen, both family doctor trained actually We’re all family doctors. But anybody is doing this full time and part of it is because is because we’ve gotten into different careers and that’s what it’s all about here today is me talking about clinical doctors, physicians who are interested in other ways, whether it be starting a new job in a non clinical career or starting your own business consulting. You name it. This is why it’s we brought these two gentlemen on the call today they started the clinical careers. cooperative. Have I Got that? Right? I call it the Triple C, and it’s just launched. They’re going to talk all about it, and more importantly, why you need to join it. And privileged to have on the call with me is Dr. Tom Davis. And dr. John Jurica. Welcome, guys. Thank you for being here.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
Oh, go ahead and talk now. We’ve had John Jurica if you’ve been following me on the BootstrapMD podcast. I’ve had john on it a couple times, and you’ve probably seen this man. His name is Everywhere he just shamelessly promotes like no other doctor that I know. But you may not have been from Dr. Tom Davis, who comes from Missouri, I believe, and the whole story. Is that right? Yes, it is your right. Awesome. So I’m a little thrown off by the Hawaiian background, but we’ll kind of figure it out. And we’ll find to kind of figure out what that’s all about. But he’s him and dr. john de rica got together and started this clinical careers cooperative. We’re going to talk all about it. But Tom, I would like to introduce you first I I just introduced your story. I know your family physician trained, but now you have a very thriving consulting business among the many things that you do so Tom, let us know more about you on the call today.
DR. TOM DAVIS:
Well, thanks, Mike. And I want you to know that I to shamelessly promote just probably in a little different circles than other folks. I’m Mike. I’m a board certified family doctor and I came out of my residency in 1994 and joined a teeny tiny single specialty group, right out of residency in rural Missouri about the same time that we signed the first total risk Medicare Advantage contract offered anywhere in the country that was 1994. If you would imagine that Well, I was very fortunate, nobody else knew what to do with it. So finally, they let our little teeny tiny practice, my partners were just very far seeing. And 18 years later, we sold the health system that we created on the back of that contract and others like it to a regional competitor for $132 million. Wow. And I use that number to impress the business guys. But what should impress everybody who’s listening is the fact that for 18 years, I got to practice medicine, like I was trained to with autonomy. It was like the I was a small town doctor, I got to do what was needed. It was like dancing on air. So after I realized that an employment situation was not a good thing, Fit. I decided to go out and teach mentor other clinicians and businesses and insurance companies sell systems and how to do what I did. And while I was doing that, I got to rub elbows, everywhere across the country, I mean, everywhere with a bunch of very, very unhappy doctors. And I also got to see how they were treated. Because when the boardroom door closes, and you’re standing in the back of the room, they kind of forget you’re a doctor. And they think that you’re a business person or consultant in some of the things that I saw. Were horrific, for lack of a better term. And so I decided to dedicate some of my time to help clinicians who did not have the opportunities I did kind of pay my, my, my good fortune forward and help them navigate in alternative worlds. One of the benefits Mike of doing what I did is I got to rub elbows with a bunch of venture Apple types and they gave me a heads up, though eight years ago that they were going to start lobbying the state legislators to expand telemedicine authority. So I got in telemedicine pretty early and created my own telemedicine practice as an independent contractor. And I teach clinicians how to do that as a as a great way to kind of decompress for the first couple years off the treadmill as they try to decide what they do. And now I’m in the I’m also working on helping clinicians start their own cash pay practices through a variety of vehicles. So it’s really just kind of, I feel kind of like Forrest Gump. Sometimes I kind of go where the wind blows. I just been fortunate to be there before the wind starts blowing.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
Now, are you still practicing medicine or is your other ventures kind of taken that away from you?
DR. TOM DAVIS:
I am absolutely I practice I supervise nurse practitioners and I practice telemedicine 10 hours a week. I try to live the life that I advocate and I mentor in that way one It makes me better mentor just like practicing medicine makes us all better. Better doctors, but to it also kind of demonstrates that, you know, I’m not just blowing smoke. I mean, it should never take advice from someone who they themselves. It’s not free. And so I’m free to do what I want. And I’m hoping that that convinces some of these just terribly impaired physicians who are just trapped on the treadmill to actually look up, look around and see what else is out there.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
Thanks, Tom. And I hate to take the spotlight away from you. But john has been needling me. But you know, he’s got a lot of fans a lot of fans of John Jurica out there. And
DR. TOM DAVIS:
Why do you think I partnered with him?
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
They’ve been clamoring…and they want to know “we need more John Jurica!” John, for the seven people who don’t know who you are. Can you tell us in a nutshell, who you are. And interestingly, how did you guys to meet up and start Okay, let me give you my quick intro now.
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Oh, yeah. I’ll tell you how Tom and I met you know, it’s sometimes hard to remember those things when they go back few years but if family physician, I worked my way into my first full time non clinical job as a senior VP and Chief Medical Officer for a hospital did that for a few years, and I got tired of it and I want to do something entrepreneurial. So I opened an urgent care center. And when I did that, I had a little more free time. So I started doing a blog, which led into my podcast, which is how a lot of people know me. And then shortly after I started the podcast, I got involved with a Facebook group called physician, non clinical career hunters. So that’s pretty well known. There’s almost 14,000 members in that group right now. And then more recently, I opened a non clinical Career Academy, which is a paid site course the podcast is free. And then Tom and I went into this new venture now, how did I meet Tom, you know, okay, Tom, I don’t know that I met you at the seek meeting. You might have to remind me but we’ve known each other for a couple of years, we’ve been sort of talking about doing something together. And then you came up with this fantastic idea that we can talk a little bit more about in a minute. But do you remember how we actually first met?
DR. TOM DAVIS:
We met at seek and then you invited me on your, on your podcast, and we just kept in touch and, and we started talking about this approach of scaling, helping doctors, and it’s just taken off from there. It’s all in your partners. It’s all in your partners.
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Well, I By the way, I have I’ve had time on my podcast twice. And I think I’ve just scratched the surface of the things that he’s done over the years. He’s written a bunch of books, not all of which he’s released yet. He does his telemedicine thing. He’s doing consulting, he’s working with startups. So it was a pleasure to work with you time once we came up with this plan. Yeah, so
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
I got up the business because he wants to know more about this man of mystery. So revealing my secrets I gather. So it’s for those who don’t know, I think everybody knows what seek is but it is a contract for doctors pursuing non clinical careers. Now, we You guys, attendees, were you speaking at the event? How did that? What was the situation there?
DR. JOHN JURICA:
I’ll start I was attending and it was I was I was basically sort of lurking. My main role, reason to go there was to find guests for my podcast. Laughing there was it and it was full of people that I met and half if not more, had been on the podcast and then but Tom, it was on the mentors. Maybe you can tell him more about that. And then he’s presentation.
DR. TOM DAVIS:
I attended it. About seven years ago when I was figuring out that I was a bad fit for employment. And then, so I mentored frequently. There’s since and I believe that’s where we, that’s where we met. So it was a great program. I really enjoy it.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
So when did the wonder the situation happened? Where you’re, you were thinking about this idea of the clincal careers cooperative. Tell me, tell me the genesis of that
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Tom. That’s you
DR. TOM DAVIS:
I was just thinking about it. I thought about SEAK. And I thought it’s always about scaling. The last time I was at seek before we started before john and i started this, I was struck by the number of residents. And yes, even medical students that were attending. It was shocking to me shocking. And, you know, secretly does that once a year. And it’s a great model. But there are some ways that it can be tweaked. And really, the need out there is so compelling that and the barrier to go into something like an off site conference. They’re important because they commit you to making a change. But on the other hand, it really excludes people who maybe aren’t there yet, and really might slow down their progress. So it was the ideal scale, and I knew that if I was going to scale I needed someone with John’s reputation and expertise. And I’ll tell you a Jerry Seinfeld story. He was at a He was at a network, a network party filled with suits and he can get this on YouTube when he talks about it. And he just is very uncomfortable in that situation. And in the corner, he spied none other than Chris Rock. So I went right over to him and grabbed his head, grabbed his shoulders at the same time he grabbed mine, we both looked at each other’s eyes and said, comedian and and you know, they were both comedians so they both could let down their hair around each other. Well, John’s a family physician and I worked a lot with specialties and administrators of business folks. So john, being a family physician, even though our product is broad is the point of the broad spectrum. John, being a family physician really, really helped me unlock some of the creativity and I believe that I’ve done the same for him.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING:
John, I’m now gonna call you the Chris Rock of non-clinical jobs.
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Okay, that’s okay. I like that. I should be So funny.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING:
So, so you have this idea and kind of behind the scenes, you know, I’ve known I’ve known john for a while. And one of the reasons to it was he wanted to he also believe you’re thinking about a membership site that you’ve got your Facebook group. But I knew you had some reservations about being on Facebook, even if it’s a paid Facebook group, you want to share that with the audience.
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Okay, this is mine. Right? I had a couple of concerns. First of all, there are different kinds of Facebook groups. I’ll just go through these very quickly. But the two major that I see are a single owner. So somebody starts a Facebook group, you have an individual who may be an expert, a coach or something, there’s something online that they’re selling, and they have this, this group, so that kind of limits the members of that group to that person’s expertise. So if they want to get a lot of different opinions, they have to go to multiple groups, they may end up joining 5, 10,15, 20. Now that person owns That group can sell in that group. Now the other hand you have the group that I’m involved with as an admin, and that is massive group, anybody can come in after passing, you know, a few barriers, making sure their physician and so forth. But there’s absolutely no promotion allowed in our group. It’s one of those large kind of promotional groups, you can chat, you can support one another. And so you’ve got that. And so for me, and other mentors that are in there, and there’s a number of coaches and mentors in the Facebook group that I talked about earlier, they really can’t sell in there, but they can gently sort of softly sell and if people like their comments, they can track them down and do that kind of thing. The other thing about a Facebook group is it could go away anytime. I mean, even a private Facebook group or your own personal group, you know, Facebook changes, the rules, you know, used to be pages were big now, pages are not so big groups are big now, groups have been shut down. So those are just some of the reasons that you know, after talking with time, we thought well, one of the things would be great about having a cooperative and online forum. something of that nature is that it would be a little bit more private, there’d be no way that anyone could shut us down unless we wanted to shut it down. We can have a lot more designated mentors, and we can recruit mentors to it. So unlike my facebook group where, you know, they just kind of lurk out there, and they may or may not show up. And then the other thing about this kind of forum is that you can find things a lot easier because we have designated topical areas and threads that you can go in anytime you can find what you need, you can search on it. In my facebook group, it’s almost impossible to find a thread from six months or a year ago. I mean, it’s just it’s not built for that. So those are some of the reasons I think that Tom and I discussed and when we were trying to put together how this thing would work.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING:
So let’s talk about the clinical careers cooperative. Tell me it’s a membership site. It’s got lots of different forms, what can they expect when they join?
DR. TOM DAVIS:
Well, what you can expect is a safe environment where you can connect With a broad spectrum of mentors that john and i have curated, as well as reviewing the collective wisdom of all the conversations that have preceded you. So unlike other social media groups, the the threads don’t disappear, they’re going to be there. And you’re going to be able to to peruse them. The subscription feature is intentional. One of the challenges with the free Facebook groups is that they don’t challenge you to take the next step free Facebook groups have a role. But unless you put just a teeny tiny amount of skin in the game, you really are not likely to take the next step. And the idea behind having a low but a nominal but real hurdle. financial commitment is so that so that you engage, and then it’s my job to make sure that the environment that you’re in is generating value for you.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING:
Yeah, and I mentioned this on a recent a podcast to that, you know, or you eat a post, it’s like, you know, people say, Well, you can get everything for free, you know, everything’s free on the internet, I can find this on YouTube. You know, I used to do some free calls, and most of my consulting is now paid but I’ll do like a free you know, initial call where we just kind of opened myself up and use looking at and I just look at the numbers you know, and then say for every 10 free calls, maybe one person will actually take action. And the idea of having skin in the game really, you know, engages you engages that person and the other thing too is, you know, you go No offense to you know, on your Facebook groups, but people could be given free advice and completely doing the exact opposite of what you’re what they’re doing or they’re just saying, I’m what they’ve read, they’ve not actually been doing it and I like what you said Tom is like, one of the reasons that you’re you’re still kind of in the game is you’re living the life that you want to lead and If you weren’t, then you would be considered, you know, a fraud. Right? So that’s the importance that I believe about having a paid membership versus free. Any thoughts on that?
DR TOM DAVIS:
Well, Mike, I want to I want to emphasize the point you just made, as I said, previously, the people that are mostly employing doctors and our business types, and they are not looking out for the interest of their workforce. And john was very passionate about having this be owned and created and operated by clinicians. Not just for physicians, nurse practitioners, PA, dentists, you know, whatever the patient care specialty that you have, but it’s run by your fellow clinicians. john and i are not looking to squeeze every last nickel out of you, okay, we’re here because it’s our personal mission to serve. And we’re trying to create the best possible site where we can help you do better and that is something that is absolutely missing from the social media platforms, even the ones that are run by clinicians themselves. They’re not really properly vetted. I think that they have their place. But the cooperator was meant to be the next level where you know that you’re among peers, because as we all know here is that the system has failed the clinicians and the only people that are going to help clinicians do better are your fellow clinicians.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING:
I love it. I love it. So let’s talk about maybe like who’s, who would, who would most benefit from this or perhaps we can talk about what are the topics that we’re going to be seeing here in the in the CCC? John?
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Well, I’ll start the topics if I can remember, have a I don’t have the list in front of you. But we have some general topics at the beginning that are just welcome and just career transition in general. Then we have specific topical areas on medical science liaison, hospital based management careers. I think they have courses when I tell them medicine which by the way You might want to just go in there for that alone because Tom, how many posts have you put in that telemedicine forum? Tom 5050. I mean, he’s put a lot in there and he’s been really chronicling, I think from what I understood what I read of it, you know, some working within COVID environment, pandemic and then just sort of all the kind of things that come up while you’re doing telemedicine, the nitty gritty, the little pearls that you learn only by doing it and so that has been I read about half of those and those have been awesome. We got one on locum tenens, which is a popular clinical but sort of conventional career. Let’s see utilization management, medical writing.
What am I missing?
DR. TOM DAVIS:
medical spas speaking and entrepreneurship, venture capital, consulting and coaching.
DR. JOHN JURICA:
You know, we have coaches in there not only to serve as coaches or guides For the members, but also coaching is an awesome career for physicians, you get a lot of the all the good and like none of the bad. So it’s not i’m not surprised by the number of physicians who when they transitioned out of clinical, they went into some form of coaching.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
That that’s awesome. And I know I’m one of the mentors and can you name just a few of the other mentors that you’ve got participating in this?
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Yeah, I’ve got a list right here, but
I’m going to try and go down most of the list here because Andrew willner is the expert in locum tenens he’s written a book on it he’s also an expert in medical writing. Christopher Loo does real estate and consulting and passive income. Charmaine Gregory I think I know her best as a coach, mostly fitness coach and then I think also transition life transition coach, Maiysha Clairborne I think your listeners know who she is. New and then we got Phil Boucher, maybe you could talk about Phil and maybe also Jill what is a winner because she’s one that Tom has has brought Right.
DR. TOM DAVIS:
So Phil is a pediatrician and he’s also physician coaching and someone who helps people with their revenue stacks and develop different streams of revenue. And Jill also specializes in actually working with with women clinicians and helping them with problems from that challenges from that perspective.
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Just to complete the list besides Tom and I, we’ve got Lisa Jenks Mandy Armitage, specialist in medical writing, Marjorie Stiegler I think many of your listeners will know, branding and online business. Michelle Mudge-Riley. The I kind of think you interviewed her recently, Mike, and I think those are the current ones I was gonna say, too, we’ve we’ve got already others that are asking to come in. And we’re going to try to do some kind of vetting process and we’re not going to be overbearing on this, you know, people are interested in and they’re legitimate coaches or they have some expertise, we’ll include them but we will definitely make sure that you know, they’re they’ve been doing this for a while and they have expertise, you know, before we let them apply for member as a mentor.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
This is amazing stuff, guys. And what’s so incredible is like, I’m even thinking, you know, Tom, I know you’ve been out for a while I’ve been out out for a while, you know, john for the last few years.
This stuff wasn’t even talked about.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
You know, we, I’ve mentioned it many times, you know,
being able to actually speak about this at a conference was almost considered taboo. You know, I remember speaking at a conference where they, it was pharmaceutical Reimann say, why don’t we just, we’re just really more interested in doctors writing more prescriptions and, and promoting medications. And you know, nothing really about entrepreneurship, consulting, even locum tenens, you know, we really didn’t even know much about so it’s amazing to have this that wealth of knowledge and really, you’re not going to find this in any books. This is people actually doing it. I think that’s was part of your vetting processes. You guys are actually doing this stuff, you guys have done it on your own. Now, you know, share your knowledge, you know, with the world and learn and it’s always it’s always something to is it’s continuing to learn this this type of information is continuing, you know, just just about what we’ve dealt with in the last two weeks, right? We’re all we’re all learning in these new processes. So, um, we’ll have a link to it guys, too, for you guys to join up. I know, at the time this is coming out, we’re doing a special, you want to take advantage of it. I know it’s a special pricing that you’re doing. I don’t wanna put words in your mouth but I don’t know how often you’re going to have this lower price. Is it for Is it fair to say this is probably the lowest prices you guys are going to offer?
DR. JOHN JURICA:
I say that’s true. We haven’t decided if and when we will raise the price but Obviously, because it’s a chicken and egg we have to get members we have to get mentors. It’s kind of just it’s a it’s the little startup now so six months from now when we have you know, who knows hundreds or thousands of members and 20 or 30 mentors then you know things will be different. But the other thing I wanted to mention before we close is that to get people in besides it very tiny cost and the seven day free, you know, introduction that they can take advantage of, there’s a bunch of bonuses that are going to be going away within about a week or so. So I mean, we have some PDFs some you know, thing that I wrote a while back but I think the good ones the really good ones are $75 off to an upcoming course with Michelle Mudge-Riley that you know about Mike 100% discount and one of Marjorie Steelers courses, two months to get into my non clinical Career Academy two months free, that’s worth about $200 and then you get the telemedicine mastery course that Tom has been been selling for a year or so to people interested in telemedicine. And I think that covers it that I know and we’re adding new ones, I guess all the time. So you want to get in early just to get those even if you don’t hang around more than a few months, it’s definitely worth it.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
And just just to throw things out to sorry not to cut you off too, I’ll be adding a bonus to that as well. That I’ll be sharing at the end of this call
it’s gonna be something that is gonna be very valuable.
DR. TOM DAVIS:
John and i have really gone
gone as far as we possibly can, adding lots of value, especially as we’re, as we’re kicking off the hard launch. But the biggest barrier to this endeavor to clinicians helping clinicians quite honestly is the clinicians themselves and that this is something that is nowhere else on the Internet, you can’t find it anywhere else. And so it’s important to understand that the mission of this is to help peer clinicians because nobody else inside the system is looking out for clinicians. And even if this might not be something that you’re totally interested in, or you’re kind of in the pre pre contemplated phase, I urge you to stop by take a look, subscribed for at least a little while and help support the site, not because john and i are looking to make a buck off of you because believe me, we’re not. It’s because this is new. And we are in a new world. And the only structures that are going to work are new ones. And so I just asked, everyone’s listening to check us out. Give us a subscription, help us make the site better, and to be the change that you want to see in the world. If not for yourself, then for somebody else.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
I love it. And I think you also
have an important point in that, you know, anytime you’re in the beginning of something, you know, there’s definitely some I need an easiness. But you can help set the curriculum in terms of what you’re asking. And I know, for myself when I have a question on something, and I put it on the internet, you know, I don’t know really know where to go to sure you could go to Facebook groups, but you don’t know who’s actually responding. That’s actually true. I can’t even find half the questions and what Facebook groups that I’m in no offense again, there’s so many different Facebook groups that are out there, knowing that there is a site out there if I’ve got a question at two o’clock in the morning, it will be answered relatively soon, with almost with a team of physicians in a whole bunch of different genres, a whole bunch of different experiences that you can be sharing. I know Tom, you and both of you are contributing and me Answering questions. But you’ve also got that team of mentors there to, you know, to have your back, so to speak. So, I appreciate you guys taking the time. I know, Tom, you’re ready to go back, dip into the water there on the beach. Any final words before we end the call today?
DR. TOM DAVIS:
I’m gonna let john finish up the sound more erudite than that. Oh, really?
DR. JOHN JURICA:
Last minute comments. Is that what you’re saying? Mike? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know,
there is you can go and spend a lot of money on coaching. I love coaches. You can go and just go to the free Facebook groups. But, you know, if you could join with other clinicians in a very low cost, friendly, safe environment, I encourage you to do that. The other thing I would say is that, you know, Tom and I, I know are committed to helping our peers. Get out of the rat race. I mean, it’s just, you know, it breaks my heart. When I see my peers suffering, whether they’re burned out if you want to use that term, whether they’re just taking advantage of the new grads coming out. They don’t even know how bad they have it. And I just wanted to create something that is going to be there to help you give you some hope, and actually some hand holding and some concrete advice and guidance as you try and figure your career out.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING:
Dr. Tom Davis, dr. John Jurica, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom here with us today. If you guys want to join, we’re going to leave a link. I’ll have a special bonus that we’ll be talking about, as well that once you guys joined, this is the best time to join most of us are at the time of this video where you’re usually holed up, now’s the time to take advantage of online education. This is the time to improve your skills, improve your knowledge, improve your career. If you’re not liking where you’re at right now, there are people who can help you. First place to start the CCC clinical careers cooperative. Thanks, guys. It’s been a pleasure. Fun.
DR. TOM DAVIS:
I as well. And fun. Get back to the beach.
DR. MIKE WOO-MING
Get back to you guys. We’ll say thanks again for listening. And as always keep moving forward.