Want to get more traffic to your website offers and campaigns? Most high level entrepreneurs often turn to media ad buying to get fast and effective results. On this episode, you’ll meet formerly broke MMA fighter turned traffic expert, Chad Hamzeh, who is the founder of DSV2 media, a wildly successful online direct response agency. Media ad buying is the process of purchasing advertising space in media outlets, such as branded email lists, TV, and even social media. The goal of media ad buying is to reach a target audience with a message that is both relevant and persuasive.
On this interview, Chad will discuss the do’s and don’t on media ad buying and how even beginners, can learn to acquire new customers and grow sales very quickly with online traffic.
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Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Hey guys, this is Dr. Mike. welcome to another edition of Bootstrap MD, the podcast for physician and healthcare entrepreneurs. I know a lot of you have had questions about how to get more traffic to my website, whether it’s You’re a coach and you want to get more prospects to be turned into clients, or maybe you have your own practice right now.
And you don’t know how to get through all of the noise in terms of SEO and social media. And maybe you want to attract more patients. I found an expert and he gladly has accepted to be on this. If someone did, I just met recently at a business conference and I think you’re going to get a lot added if you’re looking for traffic, then don’t go away. They’ll definitely want to pay attention to this interview. This gentlemen was a former professional MMA fighter who started his entrepreneurial journey as an online affiliate marketer and media buyer back in 2009. Since that first time he’s founded seven, eight figure startups, as well as scaled several client offers and these endeavors generated over 150 million in revenue and over 1 billion that’s billion with a “B” visits online currently operates its own e-commerce brands as well as agency, which is known as DSV two media, please welcome to the program, not doctor, but Chad Hemzeh. Chad, how you doing?
Chad Hamzeh: Great man. Happy to be here!
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I’m used to interviewing a lot of doctors *laughs*
Chad Hamzeh: Maybe that’s next for me!
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: It could be! You’ve done so much tremendous things in your life, and I don’t want to keep you busy. You’re an MMA fighter and I’m sure you could kick my butt, so I’m going to make sure I respect your time. But in person just a few months ago, we were at a crypto business conference of all things that I’ve heard her name for quite a while in this internet marketing internet business, a world that we, live in and I dip my toes in every now and then, but I want to hear your story because it’s very interesting.
I’ve I’ve read bout, you and listened to you on some podcasts, but I think our viewers would definitely want to know more about how you got started, because I think it can be very inspiring.
Chad Hamzeh: Thank you. Yeah, so it’s, pretty interesting. I I used to be a business analyst. I lived in Canada since I was born for the most part. And I was a business analyst from about 2005 to 2009 and I was fighting and training all that time and that’s really what I wanted to do with my life and that sort of stuff. And I spoke with my wife and I was like where can we go where it’s affordable, we’d be able to train full time so we didn’t have to really work. And that basically took off a lot of spots in the west and the world, but it allowed us to go to Thailand. So we went to Thailand pretty we were pretty broke at the time and all that. We had a bit of money saved up to do this trip. And fighting training full-time for a year.
It was a great. or About a year into it. My dad got sick, he had stomach cancer. And I had moved back to Canada essentially to take care of them, help take care of them. And I just had a year of like freedom, right? So the last thing I wanted to do as a work and plus I needed to be around the house.
So I literally just typed in how to make money online. It was basically how I did it. And you can imagine just the rabbit hole of deception that I went down.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I’m sure the first listing was completely legitimate, right?
Chad Hamzeh: Correct. Yeah. Back then less compliance on Google. So the first 10 or so are probably not very legitimate.
And so a lot of it was just like reading, studying. I was in forums. I joined a forum called PBC Coach, which I learned pay-per-click marketing. So that was good. I came across that and a lot of good affiliates actually came out of that forum way back in the day. And then I just started testing.
I was already in debt, so I figured it out. But more debt on my credit card too. Yeah. It was the worst business plan ever, but yeah. And then I had I had my first six figure month, about four months into it. And I was like, gross revenue, not profit. And so I was like, “wow, there’s something to this.”
And I just kept going and kept testing and all that. And the rest is history. I’ve had different startups along the way. Some massive successes not so much, but that’s the game. And yeah it’s, been great. And it’s allowed me to live a lifestyle that I like freedom and all that. So I’ll get to train still every day.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: ‘s definitely inspiring and I talked to clients and people who want to start their own business and I see some who just okay, I’ll do it on the side and then they never get anything done.
And what I tell folks is “if you really want to have a business, hire people and then be responsible for their payroll. And, even if yourself, you said you’re broke, so you had to make it work. And so putting it on credit cards is it’s like rolling a dice, but if I wanted to get this accomplished I need to do this. How much of a motivation was that for you to make sure your business was successful?
Chad Hamzeh: Oh it was! My wife was pregnant at the time. I had a baby on the way, I had a mortgage, my dad was sick. So there was a lot of things that were stacked where I’m like, I have to make this work because my wife was working.
And I knew that she’s going to have to stop working soon and I didn’t feel it was fair on her. And so I just had to it was. It was essential that I made at work. Like I just didn’t really have many, much of an option. So I was working 14 to 16 hour days in the beginning, just trying to learn it mostly on my own.
I never really had mentors, especially back then other than just being in the forum and whatnot. So yeah, it was a hundred percent essential. You know what I tell people like if they’re working a full-time job and that sort of thing one thing I often tell them is your full-time job is from, let’s say nine to five.
If you don’t have the the capital or whatever to hire people, then your second job, which is your business is going to be from like six to midnight or whatever it is. It’s just the way it is. Now, if you’re coming with some capital and you said that’s you just have to learn the operational aspect and learn how to audit. So learn what’s good or what’s bad. And then hire people to actually do that legwork during the day. That’s the best scenario. If somebody’s got some cash and I got a business or a job, but they want to transition out, that’s usually the best scenario because it gives you the end goal that most of us want anyway, which is just being, working on the business instead of inside of it.
So I always say I started working inside of it. So even to this day it’s a tricky thing where if I think I can just get something done faster myself, I’ll do it because I have those skills and that’s not really what we want to do longterm when we’re trying to break for you working.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah. But, sometimes you have to, I am going to, it’s funny. Cause I haven’t ever practiced up here. We’re both from San Diego. North County San Diego he’s in that I think that, that ghetto known as La Jolla, but it’s pretty rough these days.
Pretty, rough. But yeah. So while I talked to one of my, nurses and said, “oh, we haven’t seen you in a while. You’re hardly seen, how are you seeing patients? You’re hardly apply that I’m hardly working. It’s I’m always working. I’m always working okay. Even as entrepreneurs, we’re still hustling when we’re still making things work.
So let’s fast forward to now, to today, you’ve got so many different businesses. What’s occupying your time now tell us about your business and all the different things that you’re doing… Entrepreneurial work.
Chad Hamzeh: Yeah, for sure. Right now I have only two main businesses, which is actually less for me historically, but I’m now considering launching an NFT and doing all this other stuff. So I don’t wanna get in trouble there, but I do have a car care brand. It’s e-commerce, it’s called The Last Coat. We started in 2018. It’s been one of the fastest growing car care brands out there. So that’s been pretty cool. It’s been fun. And then I still have my my agency, which is like an affiliate business.
We’re just have big email lists and I can talk about what we did for that later. But we essentially take on either clients who rent our lists out that sort of thing. Or we’ll send you traffic as an affiliate. So we’ll just get a commission basically on whatever product we’re promoting.
We also in that business do what’s called identity resolution. So essentially we place a pixel on somebody’s website and then we can match 30% of those visits. To a valid email address even if they don’t opt in or anything. So we can actually generate email emails from people who just come visit our website, which is pretty cool.
We usually get about 30% of those and somebody getting a hundred thousand visits to their site, we can get about 30,000 a month in terms of leads. So that’s pretty cool. But yeah, we do a lot of lead gen and all that sort of stuff as well. We build just a giant list typically with a polls or a survey type strategy.
People like taking quizzes and all that stuff. And then, and from there, we’re able to build those lists up pretty affordably.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Now I got started in my internet business journey by actually buying a list. It was a big step, to take where I bought a list, it was an internet marketing list from a guru who was actually my mentor.
And I bought it… well I don’t want to give how much I actually bought it for her, but I’ve made a hundred times over that, I paid for it. So how did you get started with lists? Did you buy them? Did you build them from scratch? How did you get started?
Chad Hamzeh: Yeah. I have this whole thesis when I’m building email lists. So if I’m just building. An email list for the purpose of sending out emails, not so much to like to build a buyers list. I want people who are clicking well, like just who are going to click from emails. And so we would go and do media buying, which is basically we’re going to buy traffic, but we do it off of other email lists.
So we wouldn’t own the list. What people do with us… Essentially. they pay us a flat rate. We send an email out for them. So we went and did that. On other people’s lists. That’s how we actually started it. And we used to just advertise as affiliates, trying to make profit on drugs. And then performance was trending down like that and that sort of thing.
So I was like what’s a way that we could own the asset a little bit more. And so we started getting people to subscribe on like hot topic kind of polls and that sort of stuff and surveys. And so that was how we ended up building the list over time. So it was essentially like running ads, we would run the ads on people’s email lists because are subscribers who are used to clicking emails at the end of the day. And the reason for that in our business is we’re not selling a product in that business. We’ll promote offers, but we monetize a lot by sending out just articles and news and that sort of stuff like ad sense on steroids.
So that’s a, that’s how we do it, but so that’s all. Let’s building obviously in the automotive business, the list is our buyers. We’re just generating buyers.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: So, let’s talk about that because that’s a subject that we really haven’t talked a lot about, and that is like buying lists.
So I have started to have businesses coming to me and say, “Hey, I want to get in front of doctors” or, and “what’s the best way to do it”. I got this one where he says, “Hey, I found this list on eBay of this list of doctors that I could get.” That’s probably not the best way to get it, but what would you recommend?
Chad Hamzeh: If you’re wanting to go send out a promotion on somebody else’s list the, if it’s a kinda niche, like doctors and that sort of thing, honestly, the way people are approaching you about it that’s the easiest way. Just reaching out and seeing, “Hey, what would it cost to do a dropout.”
Now a lot of times, unless the person that you’re asking does this thing regularly, they don’t really know how, to price it. So I can speak to that a bit. So the way that we buy our traffic, there’s a couple of different ways. When we’re buying off emails, the first one is just a normal CPC, like a cost per.
Alright, this usually takes, this is gonna sound funny. It either takes a really savvy person on the other end to agree to that or someone who’s not very experienced at all. And, the reason being is because… Buying on a CPC doesn’t guarantee them any money. So they’re going to be sending the list, but unless they really know the promotion and that sort of thing, they might just agree to it.
You might say, Hey I’ll, pay a dollar per click to a lot of people that are like, oh man, that’s awesome. But they don’t necessarily, they could actually get more if they rented the list out to you on a CPM. The CPM is the way we normally buy. And basically all that means for every thousand emails that are sent… So let’s say somebody has a list of a hundred thousand emails or, 10,000 emails. We’ll pay a, fixed fee. Per every thousand emails sent, but it’s pretty easy for them to see it. They’ll tell you. Yeah. My list is 50,000. Okay. So at a $1 CPM 50, that it’s 50 bucks for the drop right now. What’s a fair CPM.
They’ll usually give you that rate if they’re used to buying on that for us. We typically buy at five to $8, but really that’s just a negotiating thing, right? If the person doesn’t have a price and you just want to be like, all right, I’ll send you, I’ll pay you a dollar CPM. I’m like, they might say yes to it cause nobody really nails their list.
So those are the, two main ways that we buy. They’re pretty straightforward. And then the other way to buy is just on an affiliate structure. So they might mail whatever you want to send out as just an affiliate. I tend not to like that. Their motivation, especially if they have a good list that they do send stuff to.
It’s minimal because they’re already renting the list out on us, a CPC or a CPM, so most good list owners who have done this before… They want that guaranteed money. But yeah there’s, it’s really just reaching out, like somebody like yourself, you have a list. There’s other people that might have lists.
They don’t really have to be big if the size of your service let’s say we’re talking doctors and medical services and all that really. You don’t need a ton of volume there, you just need to have that endorsed, that implied endorsement. I like to call it. And I’m really, doesn’t take a lot of patients to make money on that drop for sure.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: What are some questions that first starting out, cause I’ve rented lists and such. And like I said, I’ve had some like super savvy and then I’ve heard that somewhere. You know what I’ll get back to you because they haven’t figured out what’s ever asked him that before and they don’t really know how to price it. What are some things that you can recommend, like what we should be asking to make sure we’re getting value at and what we’re doing for sure.
Chad Hamzeh: The first one would be how frequent do they email? That’s number one for us. Typically, a lot of the people that we buy off of they’re emailing their list at least daily and sometimes two to three times a day.
Like for us, for example, we mail three times a day. Now it’s a little bit different because we send news out . We can send twice a day, it’s trending news and then we’ll send one promotion. But I like to see at least three times a week, if we’re talking about professional services and that sort of thing, a lot of people are hesitant to do that because they feel that there’s.
Burn their list out in the consulting space, the coaching space the advising type of market. Most people will be, they’ll love to hear from someone if you’re actually, if they’re actually giving value to them. So that’s the next thing we look at is okay, you’re mailing once a week, maybe good.
Which isn’t a lot, but what kind of stuff are you typically sending out? If they’re always sending out. Just like a promotion, not even a sale, just like it doesn’t really make much sense. Just Hey, we do this service, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that’s not going to be as responsive. And then the third thing, which this is a real easy way to just circumvent.
A lot of this is just asking for the stats. Now even if they’re not that experienced of a sender, they should be able to tell you, oh yeah. Our average over the last 30 days is. X open rate X click rate. Now for some up-to-date kind of info, the apple iOS 15 type updates have skewed open rates a little bit.
So for the most part, we look at clicks and essentially the simplest answer is how many clicks on average do you send. To whatever link you’re sending when you send an email, that’s like the simplest question that you can have answered and it tells you that, okay, I’ll have X number of people.
You could start getting into all those other ones oh, okay what, kind of opt-in rates do you get on other people’s lists? But if somebody is not that experience, they’re not going to know that, but they can tell you I have, I can usually generate a hundred clicks.
Okay, great. And then that comes down to your funnel whomever, wherever you’re sending that traffic to grab those people and yeah. Do the conversion process,
I’m sure you don’t do this as much, but I can imagine, like when you first started out, were you like trying to get on their lists just to make sure to see what kind of offers it that they have was it, was their email getting into your, was it going into spam or was it on the list?
Do you do some spy work before you go into. We
still do it. We do that all the time. Yeah. I’m not just myself. There’s probably two to three of us internally that we do. What’s called seeding and we’re basically seeding our emails. We’re putting our emails onto their list. A lot of times the list brokers or night even list brokers, the list owners that we go to they’ll tell us.
Okay. Opt-in. Or we’ll just tell them that. Can you see my list? Cause I want to see what’s being sent out. That’s totally reasonable. If somebody is not really aware of this whole, whole thing, then I would just opt in on their list to prove everything out. And it just becomes a thing where you’re building up over time.
A portfolio of lists that you can hit and you can advertise on. Put, get a throw away, tidy email address one that’s just for tracking the sort of thing. That’s what we do. And just start opting into lists that might be a good fit for the product or service that you’re doing.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: It’s been so long since I’ve examined list buying, but I remember there was a resource. They had a list of all these different associations and emails. Is there still one that’s currently. They have today. I remember going to the library to get this. I can’t remember what it was called, but there was like a list of resources or is it, a lot of that stuff outdated and just not needed?
Chad Hamzeh: There is, there’s some B2B like generating leads in the B2B space. Which is a whole we could have a whole more complex talk about that. One of them’s called Apollo, apollo.io. It’s pretty cheap. So that’s let’s say you want to find a. Doctors or a specific segment of people, you can actually find all those leads and just get all their contact info in terms of in terms of the.
Those types of like listings and that sort of thing typically you just want a simple Google searches of easy listing, like your niche and then easy enlisting that’s. Cause that’s what they tend to call them. It’s called easy, right? Yeah. Like magazines easy.
So they still call them that and you can do the same with. Niche newsletter listings, that sort of stuff. But often it comes down to like finding the bit like the newsletters in your space. Like the research is knowing your competitive Intel, your competitive landscape, that sort of stuff.
And every, business owner should know you can get away in certain markets. We’re just looking for easy and a newsletter Mustangs. And then then it comes down to those guys that are usually listed on those types of sites. They’ll have this. For you and that sort of thing. So those are the ones where you can ask them the questions and fire the questions at that one on.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And I assume to a point, everything is somewhat negotiate.
Chad Hamzeh: Correct. Yeah. Especially in, so that’s that’s why we like the email stuff is because just everything’s negotiable. There’s certain things that you can do where you can just ask for more traffic and it happens less too.
So let’s say a drop goes out, it doesn’t work that great for a client. Maybe their offer was off of knows and who had deliverability issues is rare, but they’ll just be like, Hey, can I get a make good on that drop? So that means we’ll just give them another. We’ll include it. So they get some more traffic.
So all sorts of things you can negotiate. We like to we’d like to machine make goods for sure. We like to not the type of traffic that we buy, that sometimes they want to charge you a premium. If you’re sending the traffic to a lead capture page or an opt-in page, they just want to turn. Let’s say the email, you said you had sent out, it didn’t do that well for you, right? You didn’t get many opt-ins to make good as just them sending another 1 40 for free. You call make betters, but yeah, they’re typically called that exactly.
They’re typically called make goods and yeah, it’s pretty simple thing. It’s accepted out there. Again, somebody with a list of that they don’t send to very often, they might find that a bit weird, type of thing. But again, that same person probably doesn’t know how much their list is worth, so you could probably get a cheaper rate anyway, So the email world is very, negotiable. That’s what I like a lot about it.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: It. So let’s talk about switch gears enough to talk about the offer. So you do offer, you have your own offers and then you also have offers from your clients. And do you work on their offers for them or are they, or they’ve already tested it or you tweak it to what you think is going to fit well and get the best conversion rate as well?
Chad Hamzeh: Yeah. So typically if the clients that we would take on from media buying traditionally they have an offer that’s converting like they’re already spending maybe 30, 50,000 a month, and then they’re coming to us for us to scale it out. Now somebody is not quite at that level.
We’ll usually like, yeah, like on a consultative basis, we’ll look at their offer, like where they’re sending the traffic and. And we can start. Yeah… We start tweaking it. Cause we just know like the psychology, the layouts, all that sort of stuff. Typically when somebody hasn’t really gone start are just not getting much traction.
It’s almost always because of the offer. Because if you have, an offer that’s pulling and that sort of thing, especially if it’s got a good backend. There’s traffic all over the place, right? That’s usually not the problem. There’s usually a disconnect between the messaging of what they’re saying in the ad or the email ad or Facebook ad or whatever.
And then what the person’s actually seeing on the site. And that’s bridging that gap like. We’ve been in the game for a really long time, so it makes sense to us. Like you can just see it right away, but a lot of people can’t really just see that it takes them a long time to a long time to learn that, bridging that gap.
But that’s the biggest thing that we do because I’m very front-end centric. Because just through my years of being an affiliate, I’m really trying to get the front end of stuff. Very well to get that earnings per click higher right now, a lot of people in coaching, that sort of thing. They often skip that phase because the backend, like what they’re selling on the backend is worth so much that they can be sloppy on the phone.
But when you combine the two, that’s how you scale to like multi eight figures and that sort of thing assuming your niche can sustain that. But but yeah, so that’s usually what we do when people come to us, we’ll just I can really look ahead and that’s usually done on a consultation type basis, right?
Like a retainer type deal. But but it often works really well, especially if they’re not having a lot of traction, that sort of thing. If somebody comes to us with, sorry. If somebody came to us with a really proven. Yeah. Usually if I do any improvements there it’s improvement in the model itself. Like I’ll go through the whole thing and there’s probably monetization points.
It could be like selling their leaves, doing certain types of things that are in the funnel that they’re not seeing. Especially if it’s like a coaching type thing. Cause again, those people might be spending a lot just because their backend can sustain a lot of ad spends so most people can see improvements.
Those starting out obviously.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: So yeah, so message to market match definitely sounds like it’s number one. What are some other areas where you see a lot of mistakes, maybe newbies, or maybe more experienced people that have done on their landing page? Teach us
Chad Hamzeh: for sure. So for for newbies, for beginners number one is not building it for mobile
it may look fine on mobile, but not taking a mobile first type approach not taking a mobile optimized approach because the majority of traffic now is mobile. So a lot of people they’ll judge the way that their site looks and functions and that sort of. Based on how it looks on desktop, especially beginners. And it’s very interesting because not a lot of people think that most of the traffic is on mobile, even though we’re using our phones all day, but it definitely is most traffic’s mobile. I know for us, 60 to 70% of our e-commerce traffic is mobile. Right on. Even on email, people live in their emails and clicking, it’s mostly mobile right now as well.
So that’s where the priority has to be. And then after that The, conversion optimization. The conversion process has to sustain that. So you’ll, have, depending on what somebody is selling it th this could be a whole few podcasts ourselves, but basically if we’re just doing strict lead generation, and there, there doesn’t have to be much of a presale or anything like that. Often having the form above the fold on a phone, on a mobile tablet. So right when you get. There’s like a headline that’s it’s a market match and then goes right into a right into the form. So somebody can start filling out.
Boom boom, pretty easily. As they scroll down, there’s more supportive statements and proof evidence, all that sort of stuff. Either a button to go back to the form or another form at the bottom. Sometimes I’ll just do two forms. So on desktop, I would just say, have people look into it’s called the F layout, F conversion layout.
Basically, our eyes track on desktop from left to right type of thing. And then downward. So essentially the forms you have on the. Headline hero shot, which is basically the end result somebody wants and then done in the coaching consulting space. You tend to have a pre-sale video, right?
Cause that you’re trying to get somebody on the phone and you’re trying to close them, all that sort of stuff. So typically headline that addresses the market, the pain points, all that. And then the videos right there, and that video is what’s doing this. Typically but the sale, this is where I see a lot of people tripped up even more experienced people.
When they’re trying to get somebody on the phone, they’re trying to, they often try to sell their product to a degree inside of that video. And that’s not the way I go around it. It sounds counterintuitive. But what you’re trying to sell is the idea of a system or solution or whatever it is. But you’re trying to sell, getting them on the phone.
Like the whole idea is to get curious, to learn more about it and to get them on the phone because the phone is where in that scenario where the sales going to happen, we have too many people who just start to bring up all this other stuff in the video, and then the person has objections. It shouldn’t be anything like that.
It should just be like, laying it out. How this is an improvement over what the traditional way has been done. And then. It goes to the call, right? That’d that typically a book, a call tight video. Shouldn’t be more than 10 minutes. You might see them up to 20 minutes. I’ve seen one at the 30 believe it or not.
But it was pretty engaging and it was like a lesson and that sort of thing. And then it was just like going into book a call. So
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: That’s great stuff. There’s so much we can talk about it. So I think. Is it, can we say conclusively now, video beats non video, or is there always exceptions?
Chad Hamzeh: There is exceptions. In the high volume type of nutritional, when I say nutritional, I mean like supplements and this sort of stuff, the highest of the highest volume offers I see are they don’t have a, they don’t have a video. It’s just a page. Like with the layout I talked about on desktop, it’s like the form.
There’s on the second page as a checkout process, but those are typically pre-sold, there’s like an advertorial. So like a pre-sell article that, that kind of addresses pain points or it’s from a testimonial type angle or whatever. And then that goes to the, product page, the offer page. But I also do see a lot in the suburban space with video in the coaching consulting type space.
From what I’ve seen video for sure. On. And a lot of that is because there’s a guru, so to speak, there’s a face there and you need that, face. You need that someone talking who are they? What are they done? What’s the evidence they’re proof what are they bringing to the table?
That’s new. Yeah. And those types of cases, for sure. I would say video.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Are you seeing these videos? Are they pretty elaborate, like with expensive sets or is it just a simple pop in your head now
Chad Hamzeh: It’s oftentimes just somebody presenting on a whiteboard, just talking a whiteboard because delivering what appears to be.
Semi instruction, but not giving all the details out to what this new system or that sort of thing can be. We’re seeing a lot of like really creative type funnels, like where people are sending traffic to a Facebook instant message or an SMS type funnel. It’s a little more advanced it’s a little trickier to pull off if you haven’t done it before.
We see some guys sending people just to a Google Doc. Yeah. It just depends how warm that audience is. And in that scenario, you got to have a really strong offer. Getting somebody on the phone, especially when you’re testing your off-road. The reason that I like it, if it’s a higher ticket thing or it’s a coaching thing or whatever else, the reason I like to phone is because if you don’t have your pricing nailed down and your offer nailed down.
You can change all that test that very easily because it’s not in a video, it’s not on the landing page. Now I got to go change this video. Now I got to go test five to no, the video is just to get them on the phone. So when you have them on the phone, You can test all sorts of pricing. You can test offer structures, bundling all that sort of stuff from one call to the next, and you can see what resonates best.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Now are they are they asking for money at the beginning? Like a tripwire, like we do often in e-commerce stuff like a small product or a book your free plus shipping offer or is it just straight to the phone? What have you been seeing?
Chad Hamzeh: I’ve been seeing both quite a bit actually. The one that’s been. I don’t want to say scaling out, but the one that’s been a little bit easier for people in the last few years to get to that profitability point has just been getting them on the phone.
And I think it’s because mainly, especially for beginners, there’s just less moving parts. You really, what is the page? You have an ad wherever it’s running. Goes to a page with a video on it, gets them on the phone and then that’s it. The next one that I’ve seen that tends to work well is like when you say like it’s a free plus shipping, but in this case you don’t really need shipping.
It’s just a cheap book, right? It’s like a book that’s like usually a seven to $10 that can change based on the niche. Sometimes it’s going to $30 for investing, but it’s a cheap book that basically talks about the world. But not necessarily the how of a certain strategy. It may be a little bit it gives some, it gives value.
The person’s yeah, I want to learn more from this person. And then it has like, calls to action to get on a call, to learn more throughout that book. So the book is not quite a sales letter, but it’s not far off from one as well. And then from there, that sort of thing allows you to recoup some ad costs right away.
You can also put them through that traditional funnel. Maybe you have a course that you made a long time ago. They can fit in as a quick upsell, but everything in that funnel is meant to take people to the higher ticket, the call eventually.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I was recently at a business a mastermind and they’ve, said quizzes have been a lot of they’ve had really high conversions introducing a quiz.
Have you seen the same thing?
Chad Hamzeh: Yeah, absolutely. So like I said, a lot of our lists have been built off of surveys, polls, quizzes, that’s typically how we’ve done it for a few years. In our market it’s a little bit different, but the quizzes can, we’ve done it in health. We’ve done it in political type spaces, financial spaces.
Absolutely. There’s been too much talk like in the past 10 years of removing resistance, sorry. Removing friction from a sales process, right? Everyone’s oh no, make it frictionless If that was the case, I would just send somebody right to a product page every time and expect them to buy it doesn’t really work unless.
Add that you’re sending them from is just gangbusters and works well so often, especially in consulting, coaching, that sort of stuff. Having somebody to go through a quiz type process is really, smart because for one, it pre-qualifies the lead that’s going to come through to you that the person might just not qualify for what you have.
And secondly, it has the prospect thing. That the solution that you’re coming to is customized. We’ve, done things in the health space with video sales letters, where we put somebody through a quiz, like a short quiz, five to seven questions, and then based on the answers, the first minute of the video sales letter that they saw after it was different.
So it’d be like, oh your, weight loss type. Hey, and that means blah, blah, blah. It’s all factual, tied to the studies. But then what happens is it makes in the viewers mind, it makes it feel like it’s far more tailored of a solution. Okay. So that, that ties into the ingredients XYZ.
So yeah, for sure. I love quizzes. I love surveys, polls, all that sort of stuff. They’re great engagement devices, for sure.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: This is so fascinating. We’ve got to have you come back you’re you’re this is why I love marketing in the first place and just understanding most. Audience or the general public don’t know the psychology behind a lot of the marketing and, sometimes it can get us in trouble too. I don’t know. I’ll go out with my wife to dinner and they go, you know why they’re doing that for sure I do that.
Chad Hamzeh: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s hard for me to go to a website and not see the banner ads first. That’s the first thing I see. I see ads first
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Oh man, this has been great.If someone wants to reach out to you, perhaps engage in your services, what’s the best place to go to? Yeah,
Chad Hamzeh: the best place is my agency site. It’s dsv2.com. Like David, Sam, Victor, the number two dot com. I always put that out there so that dsv2.com that’s the best way. Reach me there with a form on the site.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I have to ask you those, your kids are those, your college roommates.
Chad Hamzeh: It’s it’s like a version to the V2 of an old brand that I used to have.
That’s essentially it,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: I thought those were your opponents that you beat on the ring. Could’ve been that too, nah
Chad Hamzeh: Maybe, I’ll change it to something that’s a little easier for people to, mouth, so
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: we’ll see. Thank you so much. There was so much that we could go through. I know we’re just scratching the surface, but it just gets us thinking about traffic. There’s different ways to get traffic. It’s one of the best ways to get traffic is to use other people’s lists use their notoriety, use their relationship with the audience so you can get traffic as well. So thanks everybody for listening. Thank you again, Chad, and as always keep moving forward.