Have you considered hiring a physician coach? Or have you thought about becoming one yourself? On this episode, Dr. Sunny Smith made the life-changing decision to coach her colleagues after being coached herself. Her life coaching firm, Empowering Women Physicians, has had phenomenal success, impacting the careers of so many doctors.
In this lively interview, we discuss what was the impetus to her decision, and how she juggles being a mentor for her peers and her “day job” as a clinical UCSD professor. This was so good, we couldn’t limit it to one episode!
Coaching with Dr. Sunny Smith:
https://empoweringwomenphysicians.com/coaching/
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RAW TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
If you have thought about Getting coached or looked into physician coaching. I’m sure you’re familiar with the person that I have on the call, almost synonymous with the word physician coaching. And I recently contacted her. We both participated in the virtual summit that Dr. Peter Kim was in and I’m sure I’ve talked all about it. And one doctor who really resonated with me just in terms of her enthusiasm, and her posts and kind of telling it like it is and I said again, I’m actually meet her and I couldn’t do that physically, but virtually at least, and she happens to be in my hometown here in San Diego. So a Sunday I want to give you a proper introduction and we’re gonna get started. She’s a clinical professor at the Department of Family Medicine and Public Health at UC San Diego, my undergrad alma mater. She most likely heard of her because she’s the founder of empowering women physicians, you got a podcast coaching retreats Facebook group. She also spends the last 15 years errors are out of their academic career at UCSD as a co medical director at UCSD student run free clinic project, which I’m sure is rewarding. We’ll talk. We’ll talk about that. And the last 10 years as a community director, she Is responsible for the personal and professional development of medical students, which is very exciting, but I’m sure it can be very challenging. She’s been featured in multiple documentaries on medical student and physician wellness. She’s got a coaching program, which he focuses on helping doctors, stop sacrificing themselves for others and start to finally enjoy the life they work so hard to create. Those are words that really resonate with me. Dr. Sunny Smith, thank you for joining me on this program today.
Dr. Sunny Smith
That was like the world’s best introduction.
Dr. Sunny Smith
You’re the best introducer. Can I just hire you to come around with me?
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Dr. Peter Kim calls me his hype man.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, I just, I just enjoy spotlighting other doctors doing this. You could probably tell that I’m a little bit older than you but I’ve been doing this for like last 10 or 15 years where just to talk about doctors doing other things outside of prescribing medicine was like, you know that that was blasphemous at time. So it is so refreshing to be around other doctors who kind of like understand that, you know, medicine isn’t the end all be all, you know of our life. We have we have challenges of course we have other experiences we want to pursue and that’s why I wanted you to bring you on to the call today.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah, I think that it’s that word that you use, you know, as a coach, I always noticed people’s language and blasphemous is so like, right on. You know, when you said 10 to 15 years ago, it really felt blasphemous. But the thing is most physicians like you’re in a space where it’s totally normal to talk about this right and, and we were just in this Leverage and Growth Summit where there was 10,000 people who it was totally normal to talk about this. But in your day to day life, like when I’m at my university, this is not something people talk about. It is kind of blasphemous, like what we’re doing, you know, and like, What are you thinking? Why are you doing that? So I think it it does still have a little bit of that for for a lot of people and I think physicians who want to become an entrepreneur, I think that’s the big thing.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, and I want to talk about that how you kind of juggle that professional Dr. Sunny Smith with your coaching aspect, but I’m gonna, I want to talk about this. I got a very important question for you. So it kind of tells you where this podcast is gonna go. So I want to know Dr. Smith. Which version of the song “Sunny”, do you like? Do you like the old 60s version? Or the more 70s? Actually, Billie Eilish just came out with her version of Sunny. Or you…
Dr. Sunny Smith
NO. Billie Eilish has a “Sunny?” Is it the same one? Is it a remake?
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
She did one. Well, it’s the old version. So it’s a remake, but she did one. They did it like for a podcast recently for the pandemic, the One World podcast and she’s sang “Sunny” the song.
Dr. Sunny Smith
You’re kiding me. This is like the best day of my life. Not only I get the best introduction ever.
Dr. Sunny Smith
I literally just came on a podcast and learn that Billie Eilish is
Dr. Sunny Smith
singing about me.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yes. I’m sure she’s singing about you personally.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Well, let me tell you a funny story. So of course, I love the old one. I don’t know the new one. So Sunny…(singing)
Dr. Sunny Smith
So I actually went to watch of my med students a handful of years ago, that we’re in this band, a beautiful band and I went to go watch them perform and they were doing this amazing job. The couple ended up getting married later and you know, they’re off as attendings now. But the band started singing that song in the middle, just for me, and everyone sort of looking around and we were like, Oh my gosh, like, that’s just meant this one’s for you. So like, I just that is so symbolic that you brought that up. I just love that so much.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So you still love the song? It’s funny because my assistant’s name is Jenny and there’s this song in the 80s called 867-5309.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Are you kidding me? Like we don’t know, Jenny.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
She absolutely hates that song. Yeah. So I was just curious.
Dr. Sunny Smith
I love Sunny. Most people like most of life, a med students or residents and young attendings. They’ve never heard that song. Yeah.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
My my son doesn’t even know what a CD is. You know…
Dr. Sunny Smith
But with Billie Eilish, and honestly, it’s gonna make a comeback now.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
We’ll leave a link in the show notes.
Dr. Sunny Smith
I’m gonna Google as soon as we’re done.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Let’s talk about it. So your your family practice trained. You didn’t go to medical school at UCSD, did you?
Dr. Sunny Smith
I did. I went to medical school, UCSD. It started in 1997. Oh, okay, I finished in 2001. And then I went away for residency. Gotcha. So,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Gotcha. So,how did you end up deciding, you know, one day I’m going to open up a whole brand on “Empowering Women Physicians”. Was that in your personal statement? Or was that in later residency? Where do you…
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah, that’s exactly what I did. I thought I put it in a personal statement I’m going to go rogue after 20 years. Yes.
Dr. Sunny Smith
So you said one day of course, none of us come to it in one day because you do this talking to people all the time, right? There’s always a journey and so many more, know me know a little bit about my journey. So I’ll try to say it more briefly so that people don’t listen to the whole thing. But basically, um, I mean, I always been an advocate for sort of a couple of things social justice ever since I went into medical school because I started at the beginning. We started the free clinic in 1997, when I was a first year student, and so that really formed who I am as a human being, and so like, advocacy, caring for others, I didn’t know anything about social justice before then anyway, so there was that. And then the other thing that I really cared about, is just kind of well being right and like, you’re really going to be okay. And so I would, you know, talk to students about that. And I would mostly like I showed up at the free clinic. And then there were just, it’s the most popular elective and then a core course as well. And so you know, 90% of the students choose to come through there and then they get close to you, and then they tell you all their stuff, right, and you get really close. And then after being there for a handful of years, then I was asked to be the formal advisor. So then I was their formal advisor, again, wellness, all this stuff. So I’ve been in that space for a long time. So in that realm. It’s not like wellness is new to me. But how did it apply to me? I was always applying it. You know, I mean, some of my friends, but mostly for me, it was students, the generation beneath me now. And so I actually was in a bike accident in Tahiti. It was exactly three years ago, it was on Mother’s Day. And I was coming down a mountain on a bicycle. And I went over the handlebars and got knocked out and I broke my face. And I broke my arms, and we got Potts position, or the static tech accardi syndrome, and how to sort of get, you know, transported back home for surgeries and all this and so everything that I thought I knew about my life that was like so, so, so important I had to do. No, like if I don’t write those letters of rec, no one’s going to get into residency, right? Because I know them best. And no one else can do my charts and no one else can take my kid to school and no one else can this and that in the other. And also just like, speaking of like records and CDs, it’s like a record scratch. It’s like All that stuff you thought was so important and you had to do. I couldn’t do anything because I both my arms were in full arm cast, so and my face was all smashed up. So I couldn’t eat. I couldn’t drink. I couldn’t go to the bathroom by myself. I couldn’t feed myself. I couldn’t stand. I couldn’t I certainly wasn’t typing. A lot of doctoring right now is typing, right. So I was out for months, and it was not planned. And so I had a concussion and so I couldn’t watch TV. I couldn’t hold a book. And so I stumbled into podcasts. I’d never listened to a podcast, I’d never heard that there were podcasts I had heard my med students say that they listen to lectures on them. So anyway, people my husband put them in my ears the like earbuds, because then he’d go to work and leave me for eight hours hold on myself, or a nurse would come take care of me and through PMG. People were saying what podcast do you like? What podcasts do you like? And people said Life Coach School and I was like, well, I definitely don’t want to be a life coach. But all these physician moms were like, no, it’s really good. It’s not really about becoming a life coach. It’s just about how your thoughts and your perceptions of the world matter. And I was like I could really use some thought work right now because I’m pretty pissed off. I went down that mountain, because if I could just take away that one moment, like, everything will be golden I’m back to normal so I always was like, wishing I hadn’t done it. So anyway, I listened over the course of those months there were 200 and something episodes during at that time, I listened to all of them and then like at the end, she had a pitch she was like, you know, as it got current. She was like, so I’m enrolling and I was like, Huh, I because I really changed over those three months. I changed the way I saw everything. Because everyone was so busy. All the doctors all my best friends. Like tortured souls, right? so busy, never happy and I’m just looking. I’m like, they’re busy, busy, busy, and I’m just still, it was such a contrast. I couldn’t even like get up. So my stillness versus their dizziness and like why are they choosing that life? And I didn’t realize I was always choosing that life. But once I was still I was like, everything really is kind of a choice, isn’t it? And I can so then when I went back to work,
Dr. Sunny Smith
Nothing really bothered me and saying, like, everything out because to my friends, they’d be like complaining about this out of the other. I’m like, did you wipe your bum today? Yes. Not really that bad of a day is it? You know, did you whatever all the normal things like you woke up? Yeah. And you walked and you fed yourself and you went outside. It’s pretty good. Because if you can get up and go outside of your health house, whether it’s in a wheelchair or on your own to be, you can do anything you want. Like, you don’t actually have to go to that job 60 hours a week, you don’t actually have to, like you really can choose. So anyway, I just never saw things the same and then she offered to go to coach training and so I did. And when I first got there, it was sort of that blasphemy moment, you know, all those last few things. I didn’t tell anyone what I was doing. I was like I’m going to a conference just going to take a week off, I took a week of vacation. So I was going to a conference I got there. There were a few other doctors and I was so happy. Because I only knew of Katrina you about she trained there. And she was in the summit with us too. And she was like, my only reason that I could tell my husband that like this was gonna be okay, so I wasn’t insane because he thought I was pretty insane. This was never on my radar before. Um, so So yeah, I went there. And there were a few other physicians in person there and we were all not anyone know, you’re here. What did you tell people back home. And so anyway, then while I was there, and this will be the end of the story. While it was there, you know, they teach you you can create anything you want to call that putting anything you want in the airlines the results fine, you can create any results you want in your life. And so I was sitting on the patio, or like a Jacuzzi thing with another girl who ran retreats in Bora Bora. And I had no idea what I was going to do with my life coach training at all. I just knew it works. And I wanted it and I liked it. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you really run retreats there. Because I had gone there to the Four Seasons for my 40th birthday. It was like the happiest week of my whole life. I was like, I could make that my life to do that, and to bring other people there. And so I was like, that’s it. Arline done. And then I was like, I’m running one. Here we go. And then so that’s kind of it. And then because I signed a contract to do that right away, and it’s a big contract, they’re very expensive. So then right away, I was like, well, I gotta be off and running. And so like, as a physician, entrepreneur, I have to say, like, for those who are listening, most people aren’t going to do that right at all. But what was interesting for me is that I had to perform. There was no option for failure. I think for a lot of physicians. It’s like, Oh, we have these six figure multiple six figure cushy jobs, not cushy, cushy at all, but, you know, like the salary supports us. We don’t need the entrepreneurship in the way that some other folks need entrepreneurship.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right we can generally pay our mortgage you know, we’re for some the business is everything.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah, so for some, it’s a must for doctors. What I see sometimes is like, oh, that would be nice. That’s getting kind of hard now, okay, I’m done. And so for me, it was like, Oh, no, I signed this, we have to make this happen. And so I just wouldn’t rest until I got it. got enough people interested. So that’s how I started.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
It’s one thing that I kind of try to teach to my kids is the gratitude. You know, the air we breathe that we were realizing we’re in the freedoms that we’ve had before. And it just makes everything else just seems so petty. I was listening to some comedian I forgot who even was and that it was the joke that like, this is a businessman was on the plane and he was trying to I don’t know do his stocks or something on the internet and this stewardess told him you need to turn off your phone, and this guy’s like “What?! Life isn’t fair!”. And all this kind of stuff. And the guy says to him,”You’re in a plane. We’re in the top of the air, you’re communicating. Just have some gratitude.”I know that you were unable to buy that stock at that particular time or whatever. But like, dude” like that’s what I try to teach my kids I’m sure Uh, you know, you’re running a free clinic and you know, you realize that you’re dealing with the folks who definitely are a lot of disadvantages and, you know, things like that really kind of really kind of, you know, puts life in perspective. But I wanted, I wanted to talk about your decision to actually go to that seminar. And you’re kind of jumping, did you? I know, when I went to my first like, entrepreneur conference, I, and I was working at the time, I was working for a family practice. And we get so much CME. And I didn’t even tell him that I was going I was going in Vegas at a conference and like, you know, board certification course or something like that, but it was an internet business conference. But I didn’t tell them.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
What about what about your friends? Did you like keep it quiet, or did you
Dr. Sunny Smith
think so during those month I was telling people, you know, like, while they’re like how are you doing? What are you doing? Can we help you? Can we, you know, everyone wants to help when you’re down and out. And so I was like listening and listening to these podcasts. I would like screenshot eventually, when I could use my hands and send it to my mom, and my family, my sister, my best friends from med school, who are still my best friends. And everyone’s like, like, No, really, you genuinely have to listen and what really changed things whenever they would complain to me or have a story. And so people just weren’t having it though. So, I’m, like, like,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
yeah, like, was it weird? Or what was the…
Dr. Sunny Smith
I just think they didn’t that’s just not something they know or care about. They don’t think it’s within their sphere of things to consider, right? So then I was just kind of on my own and then like a handful of months in like I had, you know, ordered these packages that would come once a month and my husband would be like, Sure, come those $297 packages again. Are $297 book with this? I’m like, No, I’m not stopping. And then and then when I told them because I went to the American Academy of Family Physicians, inaugural physician wellness conference the week before I went to the Life Coach School, so is the double AFP. Um, I was there with my best friends, the same best friends. And I’m like, and there were coaches there, like on the mainstage, like physician, family, physician coaches who worked with Chief residents, and I was like, Oh, this isn’t crazy. Like, this is a real legit medical conference. And so I talked to the people who were doing it who were inspirational. And some of them are, like, you know, sort of well known leaders that in that space, and that and I told my friends and one of them had started listening to Katrina, one of the friends who was there, and I was like, I’m gonna go do this next week, and they’re like, What are you talking about? So, are you gonna do a podcast like a train on like, I don’t know. I’m gonna Go get trained, and I’m gonna figure it out. And I actually, interestingly interviewed to be the Dean of Student Affairs while I was there. And it was on zoom. And I was like, This is such a weird life moment for me, right? Like, am I going to be the Dean of Student Affairs? Be like, Whoa, can I be both? I don’t think so. How is fate gonna do that? Like, what’s gonna happen? Um, and then when I came back, you know, I had made that decision. And so like, when was When was I going to come out all summer? So I’m like, well, and I kept sort of like delay. You know, like, Well, I have to get my LLC. I have to get my disclosures. I have to like, I can’t make my website until this. I can’t this but I had a timeline. And I was it was ticking. Because I was going to run out of time to get people to pay to go to this thing that they need time off work, they have to get plane tickets. So I had to talk to my university. I had to get permission from the universe. I had to like start having conversations with people it almost felt like secret conversations be like to anybody who runs a business here. You know, because it Like voluntary faculty, adjunct faculty, regular faculty tenure faculty, so it’s like a little exploration. Where do you fit in? What’s going to happen? Who can you tell? So I got approval, I got all my legal stuff in order and then I was like, my husband’s like, you got to post on Facebook. I was like, hell no. No, I’m not telling anyone on Facebook what I’m doing, like people I went to high school with you don’t like the random family members random like, I’m not doing that. And he said to me, if you’re not willing to put this on Facebook, you’re never gonna succeed. Um, I was like, I can’t babe. Like you don’t understand. I can’t like I’m a finger at the university. I can’t. The deans, my supervisors, are my friends a I consider them friends but they’re my friends on Facebook. There’s no way I’m gonna like what are they gonna think? You know, I was so worried about what other people think. on, like, literally what are they gonna think? And so then I was like, I know I’ll make a post and hide this post from some people, you know how you can do that.
Dr. Sunny Smith
It’s like this is the secrecy level like when you’re first coming out as a physician entrepreneur, right? Who do I need to hide this from? And then he’s like, you’re again You’re being ridiculous. And he’s so wise like someone who’s outside of it sometimes has a lot more insight sometimes not always, but sometimes a lot more insight. So, um, so then I just went ahead and did it and interestingly, and then like, and then I just had to go like full speed ahead. Okay, Facebook ads and this, you know, I’m like, okay, Facebook ads, what’s the Facebook app? And so like, I remember it was Del Mar races you’re from San Diego. So you know, the Del Mar races in the summer, you know, like a really big thing. And my my family’s very big into the races. My dad has been for decades his whole life. And so I would I left home and I was like, okay, click click, click Facebook ads, you know beautiful pictures of Bora Bora. Someone’s got to click here we go goodbye. And I went to the Del Mar racetrack opening day. And I was like, Oh my god, it’s working. It’s like magic when you talk about gratitude, right? Like the fact that there’s an internet and everyone has a cell phone in their pocket, and then I can just pay again, but like, I don’t have to go in the news. Don’t mean I don’t have to, like do something in a magazine. I don’t need to go talk. Like I’m just literally sitting there like in my jammies, click, click, click, I’ll see if this works. And within minutes, I had like, not minutes, hours over the course of the day, but like, you know, hundreds of positions who’d clicked on my link, and I was like, I was doing it all myself. Like it totally be minus work. Like it’s not beautiful, but it works. It’s just the presence and the functionality that matters. So So then I would Google them, you know, it would be like, blah, blah. With this email address opted in because she wants more information about board because I was nervous. I was like, What if they’re crazy people? You know, what if they’re not doctors, what if they’re stalkers?
Dr. Sunny Smith
So I would Google them and I’d be like, Oh my god, she’s an obstetrician. Oh my god. She’s a neurosurgeon!
Dr. Sunny Smith
like, Oh my god, she’s like, every emergency doctors. And you see, you can click and see where in the world they are. And I was just like, This is crazy. I mean, those moments where a physician entrepreneur goes into online business. Yeah, it’s mind blowing that what they teach at these things like the Life Coach School is an example. But Amy Porterfield, Stu McLaren, you know, James Wedmore, whoever you’re following. If you do it, it actually works. Crazy. So anyway, that was sort of the coming out and then as far as time went on, like I tell more and more people you know, and people would sort of find out and then myself Students started finding out and listening to the podcast. I’m like,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I was wondering about that…
Dr. Sunny Smith
Not for you. Like, it was for my peers, because then my mom would start calling me and then of course, my mom’s listening. every entrepreneur has their mom listening and their dad. And she’s like, why don’t you do one for the med students? I’m like, well, a mind your own business. Well, I know she’ll buy not Mom, I love you if you listen to this one. But I do my med students, I’d like my day job. And so this is for people more at my level. It’s like and so what I find you probably find this too is that people who are like you are attracted to you, right? They’re like they see themselves in you, you become their example of something. And so I tend to bring 40 something year old women because that’s who I am. And so I’m kind of speaking to the people who are my peers mostly have kids mostly are kind of totally overwhelmed mostly thought they would be happy light at the end of the tunnel like it’s a total arrival fallacy we get here I was working our asses off and I was working my ass off and I still work my ass off more than I should. That’s my plan for this summer actually stopped working my ass off. So we’ll see.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I love that story. And it reminds me of when I talked to my mom, and I was on the phone. I said, Hey, Mom! ” “You know, I’m mad at you. ” I said “What? “. “You didn’t accept my invitation on LinkedIn.”
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
My mom is like 81.. Okay.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
And she is stalking me on LinkedIn. And you know,
Dr. Sunny Smith
My mom tried to get into Empowering Women Physicians Facebook group.
Dr. Sunny Smith
You are not a woman physician, mom! You cannot come in. Like that’s the only screening criteria you cannot come in. And then my dad, he says he’ll listen to my podcasts like at the pool, he’ll sit there and relax. And so he was, um, he was actually like, I think, featured. There was some kind of thing about Michael Jordan recently. I don’t know why something about Chicago. And yeah,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
There is a documentary that came out.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah. Yeah. So my dad used to play for Chicago. He played hockey. And so he was in it recently, like he, there’s a clip of him in in there. And so some of his old hockey folks reached out to him. And we’re like, Gary, we saw you, we saw you and like, What’s your deal? What’s going on? And so he’s like, Oh, I’m here in San Diego and I have my son and my daughter, and then there’s three of us. And then my daughter Sunny has a podcast. You should listen. He accidentally forwarded this to me. He didn’t. He’s like, kind of boring. It’s, you can tell how nice she is. She’s so nice. So I just listen anyway.
Dr. Sunny Smith
So if you’re not a doctor, it’s probably not your thing. But it was great to
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
It’s greqt to have supporting parents. I want to get back though to what you said. You were so worried about like what your faculty members would say. Did you get any
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
pushback from that when it happened?
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah, so yes, absolutely, yes. Yes. At the beginning, it was okay. People just thought it was weird. It was like a little secret weird thing. And then it’s been growing and it’s been successful. And, um, the contract that you have with the university says, because they want to know if you’re even having like a real estate business, or if you’re having like a cooking, baking business or business or because their issue is, is it going to distract your time and attention from your main focus, which is your university job. I mean, you could argue that about becoming a parent or having an ill family member or about like, it’s like, what I do on my hours that you’re not paying me for, is, I think sort of mostly myself. As long as I’m doing it in a way that you’ve already approved, right, and I met over and over, even after a long period of time with the conflicts of interest people like the head people of all these things, but yeah, they’re there. People did start to get more concerned. And there would be murmurs behind the scenes. And there would be words to my face as well.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah, you still survived. And what I’ve always told, you know, with with my audience is just be upfront, because Oh, yeah.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Oh, yes.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
The last thing you want to have happened, like, for example, for mine, I was working in in my group, but I had started a software company on the side, and I didn’t want them…It got successful and I didn’t want them to like take credit for it or sue me or say that I was using computer time to do it, which I wasn’t right. So you want to have that document in place. It’s saying whatever you’re doing, and of course, you know there, there are certain organizations, for example, the Kaisers of the world where you’re not allowed to do anything at all. You just want to make sure that;s up front.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Now that’s the first step like in this summit that we were just in people like, I don’t know, should ask me where
Dr. Sunny Smith
Listen.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah, here are your first steps, find out the rules. Find out the rules, do they own your intellectual property? Are you allowed to do this? What space? Are you allowed to do it in only in the clinical realm, or only not in the clinical realm or because every organization has some kind of policy? Yeah, your first step is go find it. Just ask around, just go find it. Once you know it, then you can see if anything needs to be done. If you need to write it up. If you need to. Ask for exceptions if you if you have your own contract, right, is it just a new paragraph or addendum in your contract? Or is it like where I am? There’s a, like a committee, you know, who does this so, so yeah, you got to be up front and then you got to get a lawyer, depending on what you’re doing. Right. And get your LLC like you got your physician and your brain and your sort of physician hood needs to be protected and your income and your assets. And I will mention that is totally unrelated to this entrepreneur stuff. But I happened to be sued for $25 million due to a minor car accident during the time I was becoming and it didn’t end up settling for anything like that. Um, but during the time I was becoming an entrepreneur, but it made me very aware that like, because the paperwork would say and clearly is just because there was no reason for any of this except possibly that I was a doctor, right? It was like, anything you’ve ever earned, anything you will ever earn. That’s what they write up if they’re suing you, anything you might ever earn in your life. Yeah. So that’s why I think it’s important for physicians to consult with an expert with a lawyer who works with physicians who are entrepreneurs and like, get your ducks in a row and then get going
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Not to make light of it. And I’m sure that was a big extraordinary experience you were in ,but it’s nice to know that you’ve got $25 million waiting for you at some point. It’s coming in.
Dr. Sunny Smith
No, no, that did not. I mean, it ended up settling for much less within the insurance company. She was suing me it wasn’t me suing her.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Well, they’re saying that you would have made $25 million. Yeah, doing whatever you’re doing. Yeah,
Dr. Sunny Smith
yeah, exactly. Apparently, they think I’m worth $25 million. I’m not yet to anybody who’s interested. But notice how I say yeah, that’s very cool. Right?
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Yeah. I think big dream big. Right. I want to focus on physician coaching. Now. I know. You also you coach, right, currently, and you also certify physician coaches?
Dr. Sunny Smith
Actually No. It’s interesting, because here’s what I here’s my thought about that. Where I trained is outstanding, like, amazing. So why would I bother? I mean, look, I just have to I’ll be like, go do that. And if you want to work with me, and you want to work for me, we won’t be involved. Go get your outstanding training and come back. It’s like, you know, any healthcare organization? Well, Kaiser just did this, but most of them don’t start a medical school. They’re just like, say you’re shark, per se, you’re whatever. You’re just you have that, but you leave the training someone else. And so I really, really strongly feel that the the training that we had was very good. And so people go there, and then I just run a group like, I’m just like a community builder. Like I’m at my university. My literal title is community director. I got outstanding community leader award and like, I just build community. It’s like something that’s important to me. I like it. I like interacting with people. I think human connection is kind of what life is really all about. Right? It’s human connection. And so when I first went to the Life Coach School, and I saw three physicians, I was like, oh, My god, I am so validated, you’re so my people. So I was like, let’s get us together. And then I found out there was more. And then there was more one went to UCSD, the year before me, she graduated medical school. But now there’s 56 of us know plus Katrina, so 57, who are certified currently, there’s another 25 or so in training that I know of. So that’s gonna be around 100 of us. And I have groups for us Facebook groups, and we lift each other up support each other. And when people have questions about do I use my home address? Do I need a peel box? Do I, you know, how do you get your first clients? What do you do when they have this assignment? What do you do about your work? Like? I think it’s important because it’s so unique for physicians to be entrepreneurs in this space. And then like, isn’t it counseling or is it like, prescribing? What if you’re a psychiatrist and you’re a coach, how do you define the boundary? So I feel I feel like we’re stronger together. So anyway, so I don’t train sthem, but I do congregate them and don’t get me with them and offer them in a program to other physicians as coaches. Yeah. So
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So why, and I know this, but as an x y, What challenges do women physicians have? Maybe more than male physicians or why is that? It seems to hit a nerve.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Hmm, that’s a really good point. So yeah, all physicians, you know, half of us are burned out and in distress and many are suicidal. Like, that’s just a given. Is it worse for certain groups? Yes. Is it worse for minorities? Yes. Is it worse, like suicidality and women positions is worse than for men. Women work first of all, the first few months of the year completely for free, right, because our salary is not the same. Like Don’t even get me started talking about my salary. I’ll be on a rant for longer than this podcast. And that’s one thing that’s valuable about me being an entrepreneur. As I finally define my salary, right, nobody else gets to keep telling me No. Right? So there’s the salary issue is annoying. There’s all these societal expectations. Like, you’re going to be the awesome mom at home, and you’re going to be the awesome doctor. But if you have to leave at five, like, for instance, I worked with a student for four years, actually, this student ended up so weird the way the world is. He ended up recently resuscitating my brother when he was in the hospital and like, lateral pulmonary ambilight was like an incredible, incredible moment where it was like full circle, right? That someone that I had trained saved my family member, and he, you know what? He said, I’m totally doing a quick sidetrack. He said in that moment, he said to my dad, he stopped before he, you know, did what he had to do. He stopped and he said, I just want to tell you, your daughter trained me, well, your son’s going to be okay. Oh, yeah. And then he hugged me. I was like, oh my god. Okay. But we were telling a story that was irrelevant to that. So the x y the woman part, so, okay, I hope he never listens to this, but even if he does, it’s fine. So um I teach my students often for four years and so and I do course emails and you program emails, I do all this stuff. You know what? And I say we do the written ones and I do the verbal ones. I’m like, what, what did we do? Well, what did I do? Well, and what could I do better? And what did you do? Well, what could you do better? And he was like, Well, I mean, honestly, my experience is like, you always have to leave at like five or 530 to pick up your kid from school. And that’s so annoying. It affects my education.
Dr. Sunny Smith
I’m like,
Dr. Sunny Smith
you know, my kids school closes at six. So, but I’m like, I’m judged and even in and like, again, lovely, amazing students, and he’s not many students who’ve said the same thing. Many women physicians get judged for half the Having to leave at five or 530. And then when we get to the daycare, or the preschool or the school or after care, not only were we judged for leaving work, and we left our charts on done, right, and our emails and stuff that are going to need to be done later, we go to the preschool and our kid is the last one. So it’s like, we’re disappointing people everywhere. So then you go home, you make the lunch, the dinner, whatever you’re doing. And usually we’re the ones responsible for more of the household chores, right? And then we do all that stuff. And then we get the kid to bed and then we’re supposed to hang out with the husbands that you’re married. But you’re like, I actually have a lot of charts to do right now. So it’s, I feel like this is true for all physicians, but particularly for women. It’s like, there’s never a moment for yourself. There’s these societal studies where women truly don’t get 10 minutes in a day 10 minutes, whereas like the dudes and this is a total generalization because different families are different, right? And some dads are stay at home dads, but like dudes are can often if they do observations in society for studies, like they get to sit and watch TV. Like, I’m like, I literally don’t know the last time I watch TV. Like, it’s just not like downtime. What What is that? You know, and so there’s and there’s, we don’t get leadership positions in the same way, we have to have twice as many publications or achievement and this is an objective thing. For the high level positions, you have to have twice as much to get the position as a woman than if you were a man. So and then people think you’re, I won’t swear on it on your podcast, but just like, if you’re a man, you’d be bossy. If you’re a woman, you’re other things….
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
You’re a bitch.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah.
Dr. Sunny Smith
You’re a good leader if you’re a man. And you’re right. So yeah, so there’s a lot of there’s a lot of microaggressions and again, it’s significantly worse for people of other demographics, of course, but The micro aggressions against women. It’s just it’s constant, it’s ever present. And you’re never good enough. No matter where you go. You’re never good enough as a doctor because you’re distracted with other things. You’re never good enough as a mom, because you’ll never be there for the 10am. Like thing that they announced tomorrow we’re having like cookie and cupcake thing. Oh, well, you know, I have patience. So it’s just kind of like, and it’s like, what about me? Isn’t this you’re always serving others, serving the patients serving the students serving the kid serving the husband. Like the only thing we do often to serve ourselves asleep. And we don’t even do that enough. So it’s like, what about us? So that’s why we’re kind of like that pause that I had that was like, Oh, wow. People can get by without me. Like, I could literally die off the face of the earth forever, and they would keep going and be fine. So knowing that, why am I choosing that because then when you start to see that you’re like, why? My choosing this life and people always feel like they’re not choosing this life. And my coach that I’m working with, you know, I get every week every Monday. And she when I start to complain about something or like struggling wherever she’s like, why are you choosing this? I’m like, I’m not choosing it. She’s like that, like, I know what you’re doing. Right? Like, I am choosing it, right? Because I can change it, whatever it is, I have choices, even when I feel like there’s no choices.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
So, even coaches need coaches, right?
Dr. Sunny Smith
Oh, I would not hire a coach that doesn’t have a coach. I think you have to put your money where your mouth is, it’s like going to an attending who doesn’t go to the doctor or doesn’t hasn’t, you know, been to medical school or has it like what you can it just doesn’t make sense. My job is to manage my mind if I don’t believe in the power of coaching enough to pay for it myself and pay much more than my clients pay me. What am I doing I’m a fraud like I need to Manage My mind so that I can have a good life, the life that I want and create the results of my dreams and be so that people say that I really do believe genuinely in this work. And so of the people in the summit. I mean, many of them have spent I’ll just say a lot of money, like six figures on coaching.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right? I have easily spent over six figures in coaching.
Dr. Sunny Smith
.Yeah. See, that’s what I’m saying. People think it’s crazy. But it’s like, once you go from Doctor land to entrepreneur land, or to business world, like the business people, they have coaches. This is just a thing we know that helps you excel, it helps you identify your limiting beliefs and helps you get over them, reframe them, get over them, get past them keep going. So yeah, I mean, because people are like, they’ll freak out like, Oh my god, it’s $5,000. And I was like, Listen, like if they’re gonna take a real estate course, for instance, it’s like $2,000 they’re like, Oh, my God is $2,000 So much. I’m like, Listen, if you don’t have $2,000 for a real estate course, you’re never gonna buy real estate. Real estate is hundreds of thousands of dollars. So I feel like it’s the same for entrepreneurs. If you don’t have a handful of thousands of dollars to invest in your mindset, I just I can’t even tell you the number of examples. Like I mean, I probably should, I don’t know, I probably shouldn’t talk about income on your podcast, but like, when you believe you can do it, you just do it. You know what I mean? You You keep going till it happens, like you set a goal and you fall down and you’re in the mud and people are yelling at you and hating on you and what are you doing? Why are you doing it that way? You suck and you’re like, you gotta keep going and find the way you find the way the way is there and you just don’t know it yet. You keep going until you find it. So
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I always say if you’re not hating then you’re not trying,
Dr. Sunny Smith
man But yeah, I even recently because I’m so used to people loving me which is so interesting, right? Like, I’m like I literally have a picture of the student gave me a me on a candle as a savior. Like as a like Mother Teresa type figure or mother or whatever. Like. So, my coach recently has kind of brought that up to me. She’s like, what are you doing with this savior mentality, like, not white Savior, but just like, people cuz a coach needs to believe. And it’s true. And I do believe this, that people are whole. People have everything they need to succeed already inside them. They don’t need to be fixed. They’re perfect. So you have to let them stand on their own to beat and so but anyway, this whole like I run a free clinic so people are like, Oh, she’s so amazing. She runs a free clinic. She’s so nice. She like does that and then you come into the entrepreneur space and all sudden, people start throwing tomatoes. It’s interesting. I mean, there’s both and and if you’re if you don’t have some haters, it’s just it’s just a numbers game. You’re just not big enough. You know, a big enough audience if you don’t have haters.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, when I was in business, I would say, you know, they found out thatI was a doctor and you know, 99% is positive. And then one percent was like, Oh, he probably wasn’t cut out to be a doctor. That’s why he started his own business.
Dr. Sunny Smith
Yeah, he probably was sued for malpractice and was reported to the medical board and…,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
Right exactly. And the other thing, too, is, you know, in our world, we were just talking about it, how, you know, there’s much more awareness about this and coaching, but in the grand scheme of things, you know, going down the street to hang out at the hospital, nobody knows anything about it. Or they’ll say, my favorite thing they always say is, “Why do you need a coach? You can find everything on YouTube or the internet…
Dr. Sunny Smith
Totally.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming
I’m like, it’s like I’d rather find people who’ve already had success doing that, like what you’re saying, Oh, just do an LLC. And here’s the here’s the other secret here. Not everything on the internet is true.
Dr. Sunny Smith
That is true. Like it’s so true if you could find something from a source that is reliable that has been there and done that, I think in the physician entrepreneur space, find an entrepreneur who is successful, who has done exactly what you want to do. take advice from them. Do not take advice from Joe Schmo next to you on the EHR, because he doesn’t know how to be successful. He has fears and limiting beliefs, and he’ll be like, what about this? What about that? So you don’t have to go with one person, but you can find the five people or whatever, like, yeah, you need to find people who have been there and done that. Yes, you can Google it. Yes. Absolutely. It’s like a good idea to like getting some kind of program or something. And, um, I yeah, the coaching like just takes it to another another level because you’re so in it, you can’t see that what you think because there’s the whole thing about like, just because you think it doesn’t mean it’s true, right? Because we have all kinds of thoughts that aren’t true, and that we don’t act on. Like say you’re really mad at someone and you’re like, Oh, I could just say You right now, you’re like thinking that in your brain, right? But like, you know that you’re not actually gonna physically hit that person. You just think it, it’s just not true. And so we have all these thoughts about our businesses, it’s gonna fail. The people are going to talk about whatever. And you have to have somebody be like, you know, that’s why are you saying that? Because if they spend enough time with enough people who don’t believe that, and they have evidence that it’s not true, then they’ll just like, that’s just a story. Why are you telling yourself that story? It’s not a very useful story. Let’s tell a different narrative, right? Like, maybe sky’s the limit. Maybe you can make a million dollars this year, maybe you can make $10 million over time. But even if it’s not just money, maybe you can change lives, maybe impact people on your own without going through a system maybe you can, you know, whatever it is that they their dream because that’s what I find is everyone has their own dream and I could never imagine what it is. Often if you know a physician, and they come to you, and they have like a passion project or entrepreneurial idea, it’s like, you would never know. Because in their day jobs, we’re all just so used to like white coat type type type for operate, if you operate, you know, whatever you do that like, you don’t even let that part of you come out at all. So you, we don’t know what those things are. But the more I do this work, the more I find everybody, we have so much more in common than different. We all have human brains that have evolved over time with certain patterns. It’s very based in neuroscience, all this stuff, and with neural plasticity is real. And so you just ask, what are your dreams? And then you find out what’s holding them back from that and it’s always themselves, right? And so everyone has a different dream, but what’s your dream? Like? It could be you want to make a diaper company, it could be you want to like it could be whatever. And then you say, Well, okay, you really want to do it. Let’s Do it. And if not, why not? Because you don’t have to, like you don’t have to do physician entrepreneurship, but it’s fun. That’s the thing is like, the whole point of this is it’s supposed to be fun isn’t gonna be hard sometimes. Yeah, life’s 5050 right. It’s gonna be good. It’s gonna be bad. Without right. There’s no left without up. There’s no down. So without the drama of physician entrepreneurship, there’s not going to be the joy, but is actually I am astounded by the magic of it. It’s really like one of the magic most magical things of the universe. To me, that that no one ever taught me in school. Like, how did I end up in a bike accident and a podcast told me it right. So weird, like how I mean, I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad 20 years ago, but like, I didn’t believe it would be for me, you know, until I saw and again, why did I think I could do it? Not only the podcast, but I had a doctor example. For me. That really helped me not just a random example, not just some person
Dr. Sunny Smith
But a doctor so I think if people it’s good if they’re listening to your podcast they have doctor examples. And so just I you do me and Peter and like Letty and Benji. We say we’re and you know these sayings are like you’re the average of the five people you spend the most time with we really got and so we are like, we go we have this little text thread that will probably be embarrassed that I say this but like it’s called the Power Group. I don’t know who named it. But we I there’s like 100 texts on it every day. But like we’re always cheering each other on what are you doing? How’s it going and then like the struggle, it’s not false when their struggle we say, you know, and but it’s if they’re the people that I text the most, and stay in touch with the most than I become the average of those people. And I see that happening for me and, and all of my best friends who I adore and love. And I still want to be a group of five people that I spend the most time with those four of us actually, but we’re all academic, primary care, family doctors. in underserved medicine, who do education all it’s like a totally living in a bubble and I love them. And I love my bubble. But I also so for your listeners, right, like whoever your bubble is whether you work at Sharp or Kaise, Scripps or wherever you work or private practice, those are your people. So you’re going to become more and more like those people. And if that’s okay with you, it’s totally fine. Otherwise, start exposing yourself to some other people and have real conversations in real life. Start with the podcast, start with the input, but then like, go and talk and do and interact, because who you surround yourself matters..