If you have just started a coaching business or if you are thinking about starting one then the issue of choosing a niche is paramount. Choosing a niche is a very important decision that can affect how successful your business will be or if it will even survive at all. If you choose a niche that is not compatible with your personality, skills and abilities then chances are very high that you will fail in it.
Dr. Tonya Caylor found an area in medicine that could benefit from coaching but whose needs were not being addressed: the resident. Medical residents may benefit from coaching because they are often overwhelmed by the amount of work that has to be completed within their shift. Coaching enables them to achieve this objective as it helps them become more organized and efficient in what they do.
Coaches also show medical residents how they can improve their communication skills so that they can better collaborate with other health care providers. She founded Joy in Family Medicine Coaching Services® after realizing the power of physician coaching, and developed a curriculum to give physicians the tools early in their training to sustain a life-long career and find wholeness and joy in the journey. You’ll learn from her amazing journey to tap into an audience that was previously ignored.
Dr Tonya Caylor offers a 6 week reset 1:1 coaching program for the struggling resident or faculty, along with a 6 session hybrid coaching for resident or faculty groups that involve some short toolbox talks, group coaching along with 1:1 coaching for each physician in the group. Learn more at www.joyinfamilymedicine.com
Follow Dr. Tonya Caylor’s blog at: https://www.joyinfamilymedicine.com/blog
Dr. Tonya Caylor’s Physician Coaches Profile: https://www.physiciancoaches.com/coaching-category/tonya-caylor
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: .
Hey guys, this is Dr. Mike Woo-Ming. Welcome to another edition of BootstrapMD. This is the podcast for physician entrepreneurs. We’re continuing our series on physician coaching. I’m such a big fan of it, and I’m so excited to have my next guest. She is also a family medicine, family physician. We trained around the same time.
We just found out she spent a lot of time in academic medicine. And then when. Clinical practice. And then she decided to become a coach and she’s a certified coach. And what’s very interesting is she works primarily with residency programs and her goal is to make quality coaching available to the incubators or primary care in order to empower them with clarity, confidence, and joy that will span a lifetime.
I’m so excited to have on the program today. Dr. Tanya Taylor, how are you doing today?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me. I am doing really well. It’s a little rainy and overcast here in Anchorage, Alaska, but still always beautiful.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Like I said, you were my first Alaskan guest on this podcast over 130 episodes. So congratulations on that.
When we were, when I was reading your bio, I was just like, when you’re saying about making quality coaching accessible to the incubators of primary care in order to empower them. I just got back and I’m having flashbacks to my residency days. I’m not going to say the number I told you that what the number was say more than 20 plus years ago.
And I went, where were you at Tanya? When we needed this back then. So tell me, you were you went here in family medicine. You went to you’re from Alaska originally, is that correct?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: No, actually I’m from Florida.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Okay. That’s maybe for another story and how that worked, but then you went to residency in Alabama.
So I guess I got to know. So how did that, what did you say to go? You say what is the most extreme temperatures I can have in the us? And you go that way?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I think the most concise way to put it is that I’m just a really good wife, Mike. Oh,
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Okay. So there’s a partner that had, that…
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Had dreams and visions of Alaska. And I was like, okay, I’m willing. And I got here and it’s the best move I ever made.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Okay, so let’s talk about it. You were in, in failing medicine and you went into academic medicine after, or how did it start for you?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So after residency, I was in a multi-specialty physician owned group and I’m primarily doing outpatient only and got to experience what it’s like to be voted out with a specialist, say, Hey, primary care docs, you lose money.
So we’re voting you out of the PR practice. I just… this is very interesting. And then we sold ourselves to a for-profit program so we could be fiscally viable and then watch what it was like to have somebody sit across from me telling me how many more AKGs I needed to order to get my RBU’s up.
Eye opening, but really I had this whole deep desire the entire time. Really. I missed when I was a resident. I love teaching interns and medical students, and I was really missing that. And I knew I wanted to get into academic medicine. And so actually, when we moved to Alaska with lo and behold, there is an Alaska family medicine residency up here, and they were hiring at the time of our move. And that’s how I got into it.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: How many family medicine residencies are up in Alaska?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Just the one. In fact, there is a pediatric residency. That’s still pretty new, but otherwise we’re the only residency in the state.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: How big is the program?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: It’s a 12, 12, 12
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: program.
12 12 12 Program. Okay. Yeah. And how long you’ve been with the residency program?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So I was core faculty from 2008, till 2015. And there’s a whole burnout story that I won’t go into necessarily today. And then I remained as an on-call faculty since that time, because I absolutely love working with residents and teaching.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: So it sounds like that was the impetus for you to start your coaching program. Can you tell us how that started for you?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah, so mine’s a little bit different than some people. I actually went in and joined a mom and pop kind of family medicine program clinic. They private practice. They set it up to enjoy the practice of medicine. And so I worked there and healed for my burnout still, filling in as needed over at the residency program.
And from that place, I realized I had created too much margin in my life and I really wanted to fill it with somehow getting back with the residency without going full-time as core faculty again, and I hired a coach. For a singular purpose to help me explore options. And that coach invited me to be part of a group coaching program
But that’s where I saw the power of coaching. That’s where I learned the tools that I had no idea existed. And that’s when I was like, convinced that this is what my next phase of my life was meant to be, is to take those tools and put them in the hands of the residents as they’re learning so they can enjoy their chosen field and the faculty members who I know how many hats they wear and how easy it is to burn out.
To help them sustain so they can continue to train up the next generation of leaders in primary care.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: What time did you start your coaching program? How long have you had it?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I started it right before the pandemic. So January of 2020 is actually when I started my own program and I’ve had some people say that’s a very interesting time.
Like, why didn’t you quit? And I have to credit, like I had some really good coaches about, how is this the perfect time? And, with Zoom happening and becoming normalized, it gave me the power to reach programs outside of my own program because I still… I don’t like to coach my own residents that I’m still supervising.
Because I like to be the external coach, where I have a completely safe space for them. And while I don’t coach up here in Alaska, Zoom becoming a normalized thing, made it possible for me to impact programs outside.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: When I have the, these interviews, it tends to go very organic and it gets my brain thinking about a lot of different things.
But one thing that you mentioned, I know you didn’t really want to talk about your burnout, but I’ve talked with a lot of doctors can burn out and I don’t hear a lot about burnout in academic medicine. Maybe you can speak to that. You hinted that you have many hats. I usually hear about burnout cause they’re out in the field and, insurance-based and dealing with patients and declining reimbursements and all that.
And at some point maybe again, it’s my naive thinking that academic medicine was shielded from some or most of that. Tell us about burnout in academic medicine.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. I think it stems from several different places. And it is actually pretty common. That’s why, if you look at most residency programs across the country, most have openings now.
And even at the leadership positions, especially in primary care there openings and leadership positions. But I think one of the things just from a clinical standpoint, and we’ll just carve out this little space for a moment. In clinical medicine inside of an academic center, you’re usually caring for the underserved primarily.
And so your patient base has a lack of resources. A lot of them have low health literacy. There are so many social resources and other things that are obstacles to giving them good care. That we don’t encounter like in the private practice world as often. So the burden of caring for the underserved.
It’s a, both a privilege because it’s why so many people choose primary care. So they really care about that. But it’s also a burden because it takes a lot of energy and effort to get it done. Then you put on top of that there’s the educator piece. So most of us were not educated to be educators other than the couple pearls we learned from when our residents taught us or we taught our interns.
And so you’re wearing this whole new skillset of educating adult learners and trying to figure out where that balance is, where you’re not micromanaging. But at the same time, Like keeping patient safety at the forefront. So there’s this always this kind of hopefully healthy tension, sometimes an unhealthy tension that exists in that space.
In addition to that, your responsible for curricular areas for. Writing curriculum for family medicine, because so much of our rotations are external, like keeping the rapport up with the obstetricians, keeping the rapport up with the urologist and making sure you create this environment.
That sets the learners up for actually being able to learn and just feeling like a third year medical student following them around. In addition to that, you are an advisor, so you’re assigned resident advisees who you meet with, you tell them, where they’re not meeting the mark, where they can meet the mark, explore things, you mentor them.
So there’s all of those sorts of things. And then, there’s the day to day, didactics and meetings and leadership positions. Hospital committees and academic successes everybody has to show that they’re working in a research-based writing papers or publishing in journals and those kinds of things.
They’re actually a lot of different hats. And if you’re like me, and you had this like issue of unhealthy perfectionism combine that with a real heavy leaning on external validation, it’s a setup for burnout.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, it sounds you took it back again, fucking back to my residence, state residency days, it was all about us, it just probably just survive. We’re not thinking what, are the program directors, the people who molded us to where. Where we are today, all the stress that they had.
So it’s good for you to shine a light on that. So let’s move on to actually starting up your coaching practice. How did that start? Did you say one day, you know what, this is what I want. I want to do. And the rent and how’d you with open doors and say, okay, name your price, right? Is that how it works?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Haha! No, not at all. I will say that because I was looking for a way to fill that void that I had, where I wasn’t working as close with residents. And then at the same time, like having my eyes open to the power of coaching, it was like the aha moment. And then I had. How does this war, right?
Because I didn’t have, I’m really good at looking what somebody else’s doing and putting it together, repeating it. But this was something new and outside the box that I didn’t have a model to copy, which is outside my comfort zone, but that’s where we grow. Would wear in that zone of discomfort.
I like to think of it. And so I try all different things. I had an idea that I had some key concepts that I wanted to teach. But I didn’t want it to be all about didactics and lectures. So I made like short 10 to 15 minute modules. And so I actually had some people who gave scholarships to residents because they believed in the work as well. And so I had a few residents who in early career physicians who were willing to go through the process with me, as I learned what worked, what didn’t work.
I then had the opportunity to coach in a program who had heard. That I love working with residents. And they invited me to do an experimental, like group coaching program. One for the residents and one for the faculty. So I learned a lot. And so what my mindset was is I learned to see failure, not as failure, but as a ha what do I learn from this?
How do I take this and grow? And so many different opportunities, like from the group coaching, I figured. What time’s that you could expect for residents to be able to show up and what’s not going to work. So going forward, I know when I’m talking with a program, what I will be doing and what I’m not willing to do and then taking that and honing in, like seeing just the group without the one-on-one.
There was something missing, but realizing that residency programs, especially in primary care are not usually a overflowing with funds, right? So like how do we make it affordable for them to access it and yet get that one-on-one and then that was the birth of the hybrid program, which seems to be working really well.
And then I’m also realizing that occasionally programs don’t want a big group coaching program, but they have a resident or a faculty who are struggling. Some of them may officially be in difficulty and having a set like intensive six week program for them. So that’s it’s learning on the go… oh, so I guess you actually were asking like how so after I were learning all of that.
I think it really took that courage that I think all entrepreneurs tap into, no matter how scary the circumstances is, where you start talking about what you do. And putting it out there. And I am such not a salesy person. But once I could wrap my head around that, I believe in what I’m doing, like 100%.
And when I can talk from that place, I’m not pitching, I’m just sharing what’s available. I’m not living out of scarcity. The programs who are ready to have coaching will find me. And absolutely convinced. And so that was step one. And then step two was like being brave enough to say, “Hey, Kenneth, I work with your program. Can I do a webinar to teach you more about coaching and just getting information out there. And from that, word of mouth has been very helpful to me.”
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: How has the, how have you found the residency’s to be how’s it been resonating with dev? Is this a unique concept to them? Are they looking for someone like you or are they not looking for someone like you? What have you found out since you’ve been out there in the trenches?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I’d say yes to all of the above questions. I have had residency programs who thought this was a great idea, had identified… actually had a couple identify a resident in need, and then only define the resident who was like resistant to coaching. They don’t know what it is. They’re not interested. So that was interesting. It was like, oh, you know what? I’m talking to programs. But if the people I’m coaching are not invested, then I’m missing something. So trying to figure out how I make sure that they get an idea of what coaching is, I think is really important.
I have programs who were ripe for coaching. Like they, they had leaders that had experienced coaching or knew of others. Programs that were using coaching and they were actually eagerly looking for something that would fill that void. Some programs who hadn’t had as much information about coaching but were looking for a way to really engage residents in wellness in a way that felt good because residents right now the tendency is to like, be like really a yoga class after what you’re putting me through.
There’s this resistance almost to anything with the word wellness and to have had at least one partner. And he was like, I just want to offload this piece, create a safe environment where we can still address, but the residents are open to it. So that has been there. And then, there are university programs that already have well established coaching programs and our faculty are talking.
Coaching approaches as advisors who actually are not needing it. But I find that usually the community programs are the ones that are the most eager to have coaching involved in their program.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: What challenges have you seen where the residents have today? We talked about how we’re about the same age. We see the same year it’s you looked much younger than me. Oh, by the way. But what challenges do the residents have these days that maybe we weren’t aware of that back in.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. I think things are so much more fragmented right now. We may not have had work hour rules.
But what they have right now is so completely fragmented. I think… I’m aging us. We both may have used paper charts. I don’t know, but right. But learning pagers is well, and learning all this EMR. These fancy EMR is that big systems are using are really good for a lot of things, but they’re not very easy for us to do the input.
So we’ve got to click a button, wait, type some stuff, click, wait, right? Whereas if you were dictating or writing your note, Much quicker. They have that, they have the same things that we struggle with to where they want their independence and they don’t want to be managed at the same time.
They have all the self-doubt that you, how are you letting me manage patients, right? That, like tension that exists for all learners, which is actually part of the growth process. I think they do experience they, I think this generation is really good. Yeah. Seeing systems that are broken. And I’m not saying that our generation wasn’t as good, but I think most of us just had our head down and just like plowing through the work.
But this generation has their eyes open and they’re looking for what doesn’t make sense and where there’s duplication and where things can be better. And when that’s their focus, which is a kind of a great perspective, it also. Adds so much extra burden and suffering to them that’s my big take homes from that.
I, again, of course it differs between your residency programs, but I don’t know when yours there wasn’t that there wasn’t any wellness curriculum or anything like that. And actually it was, it’s a sign of weakness too recently. It’s been right. It’s a sign of weakness that, you, oh, you did.
You didn’t finish up your work. You’re just adding more to the resident who’s coming on for you. And you need to take care of that. You’re not a team player. So how was the phrase coaching? How has that is that something that they’re familiar with? Does it seem out of, I guess obviously it’s dependent on the resident, but how has it been or is it’s too broad to actually paint that picture on what coaching is.
I would say that initially the vast majority of residents and even faculty that I’ve worked. I have not understood coaching from this perspective. And so I usually need to start with an overview of what it is, and I like to start my overviews of what it’s not. So I tell them, this isn’t like athletic coaching, right?
This is a kind of a different way where I’m not acting as your mentor, I’m not the person that’s going to tell you, like how to guide you and where to go and give you the advice like your advisor does. I’m not a therapist, right? I’m not a trained therapist diagnosed and treat. And that’s not what I’m doing in this space because coaching actually sees the individual as having their own best answers, which is great.
I love that so many faculty members are learning this now to use this, but just giving that perspective that the person in front of you actually knows best what’s the, to next in their journey for them. And having the job of helping them clarify it and take those blinders off. That’s my job.
One of my favorite stories is. This was not too long ago. I had a faculty member telling me how they’d been in this role for, a few years and their whole story was how they failed, how they’re not getting it. And it was so interesting to see how many blinders they had on. And so I just told them that my story back to them from their strengths.
And so this story could be so completely different if you told it this way, which is what I’m asking. And they just looked and they were like, because I think we get so tunnel visioned into the negative. That just having to be able to reflect back and say you’ve accomplished all of these things is so good.
Okay. I got off topic, but anyway, yeah. So I start with what coaching isn’t and then give them some ideas of what coaching is, and then just say the best way to understand it. It’s it to experience it.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah. Do you primarily work with a family medicine or primary care residencies or have you gone past that as well? And I’m just curious, how would you think if not do other routes, residency programs have that same relationship, but I’m thinking like a surgery program to coaching.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So I primarily personally, my business, I work primarily with family medicine residencies and early career family physicians.
And in addition to that, I have friends who are in the coaching space, who are in academics. And so I have been invited to help with generals or general surgery residents in the Chicago area, emergency medicine and internal medicine residents in California pediatric residents North Carolina in with a group coaching kind of program and most of these have been introductions of coaching to residents in a grand rounds forum, where we come as a grand rounds.
Somebody gives like a short 10, 15 minute topic, and then we have breakout rooms where there’s a coach in each breakout room and do some small group coaching. It’s a non-threatening way to experience what coaching could be like. So in that realm, I have coached outside of family medicine, but yeah, for my business, I’m primarily focused on family medicine.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: No we all know about we’re living at right now, that physician shortage that we have. And it’s so great that you’re in there early working with these physicians, but shouldn’t we be discussing this in medical school too. Shouldn’t they be introduced to these topics. And more importantly, because we are having this physician shortage, shouldn’t it. These hospitals start paying for this.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yes, absolutely. And so here are the good news bullet points, medical schools are actually ahead of the curve of residencies and they are using coaching. Many institutions are, which is fabulous. I do join with Amway IGNITE, which is American medical women’s association, that medical student branch.
And so I do coach in that space and Amway IGNITE and the medical schools are helping fund that for the coaches. And yes. In fact, one of my faculty mentors, when I explained what I was doing. You need to go back a step and coach the medical students because they’re choosing residencies that are not a good match for them.
Yes, absolutely. I think it should start in medical school and the good news is it is starting there. And as far as… hospital systems. I would say that some hospital systems are also ahead of a lot of residency programs in and of that they are offering institution-wide programs. Coaching for institutions is a group that I’m involved with and we do coach and group programs in hospital systems based settings.
And I think that it’s really good. It’s been interesting to see different models, some models where the. The score it and at the position doesn’t complete, like 80% then the position has to pay back 50% of it or something like that. So there’s a financial investment if they don’t follow through, but otherwise the pro the hospital systems pay for it.
So it’s interesting to see different ways. I think hospitals understand. Especially the pandemic has highlighted all of the broken pieces and you’re right. A yoga class. Isn’t going to fix all of that. And at the same time, Giving access in a meaningful way to help each individual figure out what they can do to move forward on their own.
As the system also looks forward to how they can improve the system to decrease that moral injury and burnout that.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, I know at class and maybe not a meditation app, I’m going to get myself in trouble. I can definitely, if you’re watching this on the video, I could definitely see the deputy, the passion you have.
Could you share some success stories you’ve had working with these residents?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. I always take it down to an individual level because that’s where I live. I had one resident who After meeting a couple of times, he was just very frustrated with a specific attending and his words were quote, he has it out for me.
So every time he would precept, every time he was the preceptor, he would be like, oh, like he had this dread and then he would go in the room and he felt like he was just torn apart for his idea. And then he would ruminate about it. And I asked him, he said, how long does after one precepting session, how long does this go on for you?
Like where you’re thinking about it and replaying it. And he said, oh, at least a week. And so we were able to tap into the benefit of the doubt, right? What if it’s just this guy’s team coaching, teaching style.
This is how he likes to motivate you. What if he thinks he’s doing his best? And he was able to stop having dread when he went and precepted, he was actually able to build a semblance of a good relationship. I won’t say it’s his favorite preceptor, but just offloading that extra suffering residency has enough suffering.
Like we don’t need the extra of the stories that we tell ourselves in our heads. And so just helping him find relief, I think was a really good one. Another story that comes to mind is I had a resident telling me he was debriefing about his clinic afternoon. And he was like, oh, and then my second patient was a train wreck.
He’s a vascular path. And he is just telling me everything. And he was like, and then I went to walked in the room and he had a list and he was just going on. And so we were able to start to just peel apart the story. Because if you go in seeing the patient as a train wreck, you’re going to feel overwhelmed.
And when you’re feeling overwhelmed, you’re just not going to show up as your best self. And you’re just going to feel defeated. So peeling apart, let’s not call him a train wreck. He’s a patient who is here for your help. What are his issues? Let’s list them because our brain makes it so much worse.
So yeah, the guy had a lot of issues, but we listed them and then able to peel apart what can he do and what can he not do? What does it mean to be referred out and what is something that he can just help this patient along the journey that he’s not going to fix? So just getting some clarity there.
He was able to reflect back on what he actually was accomplishing with the patient. And he was able he was one of the ones in my pilot. We did a six week and he was over that six. Able to start, stop seeing patients, like an easy patient or a train wreck patient, like starting to see them as human again.
And I think, we all do that over the time of our training because we’re so stressed that we start to depersonalize and lose the humanity. But he was able to tap back into that. I don’t know. Do you want more stories?
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: There was good, but I know you also have a a short amount of time too, but I think we can all, I think that, can we now officially say that these types of coaches had, has to be from a physical.
When you’re talking with a resident, can we officially make that announcement because I can not imagine someone who has not gone through the trenches explaining who has not gone through the things that we have both have done. It’s it’s not going to connect with that resident. Yes or no?
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I’m going to make room for both. I think there may be some ability to connect, but I think that it’s so much more efficient, right? Like. When a resident tells me they score a one in their milestones. I know what that means. I don’t have to be like one that stinks. That’s terrible. I said, oh, that’s on target for a first-year resident.
Like I don’t have to go through that learning curve and it’s not on them to have the burden. And they know that I get it. They know that I’ve been there. And so I do think it really adds to the connection, the trust and the efficiency to move forward.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: You’re being a little political, but okay. Yeah!
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: I enjoy having my own physician coach and I really appreciate the benefits that I do have of being a physician coach. How’s that?
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: Yeah, that’s perfect. Tanya lots of great information. I know there’s people listening on say, maybe they’re, they know a resident or they are a resident.
We have, we do have residents who listen to on. And the residency program could use this work. Can they go to get more information about what.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: So you can go to www.joyinfamilymedicine.com which is the name of my business. I have a blog on there that has some free value there as well. And I’m on Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and YouTube. So wherever they prefer to find me, they can find me.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And let’s talk about your programs too, because you have you told us about just before the call, you, you got some unique ways of working with individuals or. Oh, residency’s.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Yeah. So for the residency programs, I have two offers. One is that hybrid program where I can coach a group of residents.
Right now I have a residency program where I’m coaching them and another residency program. I’m coaching or I can coach the faculty and they get group coaching, some toolbox talks, which are real short good tools. And then one-on-one sessions. I also for individual early career physicians or residents or faculty that wants to do it on their own, I have a 12 week program that kind of takes them through decreased.
The unnecessary suffering find ways to renew mental and physical energy and foster their ideal future. So all of that is on the web.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And just like on a personal and then note how much has coaching changed your life? Being a coach,
huge impacts every area of my life from my clinical interactions, how I interact with patients, how I act with my adult children, how I interact with my spouse and my family members, and how I view things with a lot more ease and a lot less.
Oh I can definitely see that. Like I said, you definitely see in here, the passion that you have, Dr. Tommy Taylor, thank you so much for sharing that, sharing your time and your sharing your knowledge with us today.
Dr. Tonya Caylor MD: Great. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
Dr. Mike Woo-Ming: And thank you for everyone for listening.
If you are a resident, know of a resident, know a residency program that could use Dr. Tonya’s services go out and reach out to us. We’d be happy to chat with you, but, I think the problem is going to solve itself. There, the coaches are there for a reason. It doesn’t take a lot to go out. I assume you use a free consultation.
If they offer just a phone call and she’ll even contact you from all the way from Alaska to so thank you again and thanks everybody for listening as always keep moving forward.